Does an arahant not feel angry at all?

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Does an arahant not feel angry at all?

Postby rainclear » Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:41 pm

If an arahant's parents were harmed or insulted, would he feel angry?
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Re: Does an arahant not feel angry at all?

Postby HumbleThinker » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:01 pm

Presumably no. He would simply observe something to the tune of "my parents were harmed or insulted," then let that thought pass. He would not let this thought generate anger in him. A nice excerpt I found in an article titled "Nibbana as Living Experience / The Buddha and The Arahant
Two Studies from the Pali Canon" that references a few suttas reads:

Unhealthy negative emotions are always self-oriented and self-centered. The Dhammapada says that the fool laments, "He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me," and generates anger.[50] As he is firmly tied to the idea of the self or the ego, and he cannot wean himself away from the experience which inflicted a wound on his ego, he is like a dog tied to a post. This situation is quite in contrast to an experience the Buddha had once.[51] A brahman came and abused him in very harsh language. The Buddha remained silent. When at last the brahman stopped, the Buddha asked: "If you were to visit a friend and you took a gift to him, but the friend declined to accept the gift, what would you do?" The brahman replied that he would take it back. The Buddha said: "You brought me a gift of much abuse, I do not accept; you can take it back." The Buddha also states that even if one is cut into pieces with a double-handled saw, one should train oneself not to generate anger towards the tormentor.[52] Moggallaana was an arahant who was mercilessly beaten by robbers but he was able to maintain his composure without a trace of anger. Such is the freedom one gains from negative emotions on the attainment of Nibbana.
"I know that I know nothing" -Socrates

IOW, take what I say with a grain of salt, for I likely know as little or less than you do.
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Re: Does an arahant not feel angry at all?

Postby rainclear » Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:33 pm

So would he take any action or stay out of the way if his parents were abused?
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Re: Does an arahant not feel angry at all?

Postby pegembara » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:39 am

rainclear wrote:If an arahant's parents were harmed or insulted, would he feel angry?


Anger is something that an arahant would have uprooted but that doesn't mean that he is not capable of taking action. But that action comes from knowing/seeing things as they are untainted with greed, anger and delusion.

Is That So?

The Zen master Hakuin was praised by his neighbors as one living a pure life.

A beautiful Japanese girl whose parents owned a food store lived near him. Suddenly, without any warning, her parents discovered she was with child.

This made her parents very angry. She would not confess who the man was, but after much harassment at last named Hakuin.

In great anger the parents went to the master. "Is that so?" was all he would say.

After the child was born it was brought to Hakuin. By this time he had lost his reputation, which did not trouble him, but he took very good care of the child. He obtained milk from his neighbors and everything else the little one needed.

A year later the girl-mother could stand it no longer. She told her parents the truth - that the real father of the child was a young man who worked in the fishmarket.

The mother and father of the girl at once went to Hakuin to ask his forgiveness, to apologize at length, and to get the child back again.

Hakuin was willing. In yielding the child, all he said was: "Is that so?"
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Does an arahant not feel angry at all?

Postby SarathW » Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:42 am

Arahant will extend Brahama Viharas (Metta etc) towards his friend as well as the enemy.
If he is in the middle of a conflict he will seek for a solution which benefit all.
:group:
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Re: Does an arahant not feel angry at all?

Postby fabianfred » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:15 am

This hypothetical situation often comes up in buddhist forums.... you refrain from killing...but what if your parents or family are threatened?
You would try to reason with the attacker... but to physically attack him would be wrong...you would be no better than he..
Karma will take its course...all inherit their own karma.
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Re: Does an arahant not feel angry at all?

Postby mirco » Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:05 am

fabianfred wrote:This hypothetical situation often comes up in buddhist forums.... you refrain from killing...but what if your parents or family are threatened? You would try to reason with the attacker... but to physically attack him would be wrong... you would be no better than he..
Karma will take its course... all inherit their own karma.

Yeah, makes absolutely no sense arguing about it.
I get what I give
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Re: Does an arahant not feel angry at all?

Postby clw_uk » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:49 pm

I would say there would be compassion for the parents and those who are insulting them, but not anger
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Does an arahant not feel angry at all?

Postby HumbleThinker » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:24 pm

rainclear wrote:So would he take any action or stay out of the way if his parents were abused?


No he would act, but that action, as others have stated, will not be out of anger. An arahant has no need for emotions to be the impetus for his actions, but acts out of the four divine abodes:

Love or Loving-kindness (metta)
Compassion (karuna)
Sympathetic Joy (mudita)
Equanimity (upekkha)

For example there are instances in the suttas of individuals with high attainment acting to prevent another from committing an unskillful act. I can't find the specific story, but I remember reading about a Buddhist of high attainment that utilized supernatural powers he had to hide himself from would be murderers to prevent them from gaining bad karma from killing him. If I remember correctly, though, he ultimately failed after two or three successes because he still had bad karma that had to be worked out.
"I know that I know nothing" -Socrates

IOW, take what I say with a grain of salt, for I likely know as little or less than you do.
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Re: Does an arahant not feel angry at all?

Postby dhammapal » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:29 am

I think it depends on your definition of anger. Unlike on Buddha statues I think the Buddha would have had a range of facial expressions, expressing disgust at worthless monks but not to the extent of wanting to cause them long-term suffering.
the Buddha wrote:In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.
From: Abhaya Sutta translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Great topic!

With metta / dhammapal.
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Re: Does an arahant not feel angry at all?

Postby pegembara » Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:11 am

I doubt the Buddha has disgust as an emotional state. That is not in keeping with seeing things as they are.

"unendearing & disagreeable to others"
is not the same as pleasant and unpleasant vedana.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Does an arahant not feel angry at all?

Postby hermitwin » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:53 am

non-self. anatta.
an arahant has freed herself from the illusion
of self.
if there is no-self, how can you get angry
about your parents getting insulted???
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Re: Does an arahant not feel angry at all?

Postby SarathW » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:25 am

Hi Hermit
You are talking about indifference callousness. Your understanding is incorrect.
Please do bit more reading. :reading:
I used to think like you when I was new to this subject of Anatta.

Arahant’s exercise wisdom not callousness!
Metta
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Re: Does an arahant not feel angry at all?

Postby SarathW » Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:47 am

hermitwin wrote:non-self. anatta.
an arahant has freed herself from the illusion
of self.
if there is no-self, how can you get angry
about your parents getting insulted???


Hi Hermit
I did to do some research on the OP and your answer.
What I found was your answer is partially correct irrespective of my previous reply.
What I learn from this experience is that I should not be too dogmatic about the Dhamma.
It is not easy to answer the OP with few lines. Best thing is to read the following article.
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/4sublime_states.pdf


Page 23 support your answer:
The second insight on which equanimity should be
based is the Buddha’s teaching of no-self (anattā).
This doctrine shows that in the ultimate sense deeds are not
performed by any self, nor do their results affect any self.
Further, it shows that if there is no self, we cannot speak of
“my own”. It is the delusion of a self that creates suffering
and hinders or disturbs equanimity. If this or that quality
of ours is blamed, one thinks: “I am blamed” and equanimity
is shaken. If this or that work does not succeed, one
thinks: “My work has failed and equanimity is shaken. If
wealth or loved ones are lost, one thinks: “What is mine
has gone” and equanimity is shaken.


My answer is support in page 25:
Compassion guards equanimity from falling into a
cold indifference, and keeps it from indolent or selfish isolation
:group:
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Re: Does an arahant not feel angry at all?

Postby Dhammanando » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:43 am

Though a little dated in some regards, The Psychology of Nirvana by the psychologist and Pali scholar Rune Johansson remains probably the best Sutta-based study on the personality of an arahant — both what it feels like to be one and how such a person will appear to others.

http://watflorida.org/pages/Library.html
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Does an arahant not feel angry at all?

Postby beeblebrox » Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:37 pm

hermitwin wrote:non-self. anatta.
an arahant has freed herself from the illusion
of self.
if there is no-self, how can you get angry
about your parents getting insulted???


I think this probably wasn't the intention but I think most people will read nihilism into that. ("My parents have no self... so, why should I be angry if they were insulted? I've freed myself from that nonsense already!!") It's inappropriate.

I think the better question is probably to ask whether an arahant would think that having anger is conducive to nibbana.

Also, if the person knew that it was the arahant's parents, I think it's unlikely that he's going to insult them. If he didn't know, then I think he's probably going to apologize profusely when he found out. Why would anyone be angry at that?

Even if the person had no idea what an arahant was, I think he will still feel guilty once he met the person. Can you imagine this happening with anyone who gets angry?

:anjali:
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Re: Does an arahant not feel angry at all?

Postby chownah » Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:41 pm

I think an arahat would not consider if anger was conducive to nibbana or not because an arahamt has already achieved nibanna and once you attain it it doesn't require effort to maintain......I guess.......
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Re: Does an arahant not feel angry at all?

Postby bodom » Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:51 pm

"On the occasion when a monk, through the ending of the mental fermentations, enters & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & verified them for himself right in the here & now...any aversion of his that is born of aversion is abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Those whose passion... aversion... delusion is abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising: they, in this world, are well-gone.'"


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

An arahant who feels anger is no arahant at all.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Does an arahant not feel angry at all?

Postby Virgo » Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:10 am

rainclear wrote:If an arahant's parents were harmed or insulted, would he feel angry?


No it's impossible because Arahants only have cittas of vipåkacitta or kiriyacitta jåti's, none of the akusala (which anger would fall into), nor of the kusala jåti.

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Re: Does an arahant not feel angry at all?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:08 am

Greetings,

bodom wrote:
"On the occasion when a monk, through the ending of the mental fermentations, enters & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & verified them for himself right in the here & now...any aversion of his that is born of aversion is abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Those whose passion... aversion... delusion is abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising: they, in this world, are well-gone.'"


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

An arahant who feels anger is no arahant at all.

:anjali:

:goodpost:

Excellent. Thank you for sharing.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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