The monk's rule of never sharing experiences... a cover up?

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balive
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The monk's rule of never sharing experiences... a cover up?

Postby balive » Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:42 am

I visited a friend who recently became a monk, and would not share with me about how is meditation was going.
I'd forgot... It's against the rules.

Then I recently read this, and found it to be a very interesting take on this rule:

"... he speaks openly about his personal experiences with meditative absorption (jhana). The orthodox monastic community believes this is a serious violation of the monastic code (Vinaya)... it is all too easy for a mediocre monk, nun, priest, minister or lay meditation teacher to hide behind these monastic rules that came centuries after the Buddha had left this Earth, and seem to have been instituted only to favour the mediocre non-contemplative community (sangha). After all, the record indicates the Buddha spoke openly about his experiences, and he often asked his students to speak openly about theirs as well."

What do you think?
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cooran
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Re: The monk's rule of never sharing experiences... a cover

Postby cooran » Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:46 am

Please give a link to your quote above.

With metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: The monk's rule of never sharing experiences... a cover

Postby Aloof » Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:56 am


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cooran
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Re: The monk's rule of never sharing experiences... a cover

Postby cooran » Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:18 am

So you can't?

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: The monk's rule of never sharing experiences... a cover

Postby Aloof » Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:22 am


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pilgrim
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Re: The monk's rule of never sharing experiences... a cover

Postby pilgrim » Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:47 am

Monks are allowed to speak of their meditative attainments to other monks, but not to lay people. There are many good reasons for this, one of them being compassion for lesser experienced monks, who otherwise would not receive much food for dana.

But even when speak of this they do so with great care as false claims of spiritual development is a parajika offence.

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purple planet
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Re: The monk's rule of never sharing experiences... a cover

Postby purple planet » Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:58 am

One reason not to tell about meditation experience is not to make people "want" to get cretin experiences - if i tell someone i saw colors in meditation - and he will try to see colors he probably wont be able to because he needs to have a "clear" and "present" mind so if instead of sitting in meditation without any cravings - he craves to see colors it will ruin his entire meditation
Please send merit to my dog named Mika who has passed away - thanks in advance

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Re: The monk's rule of never sharing experiences... a cover

Postby manas » Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:04 am

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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Kumara
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Re: The monk's rule of never sharing experiences... a cover

Postby Kumara » Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:43 am

I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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Re: The monk's rule of never sharing experiences... a cover

Postby Aloof » Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:10 am


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Re: The monk's rule of never sharing experiences... a cover

Postby Aloof » Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:15 am


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Re: The monk's rule of never sharing experiences... a cover

Postby dhammapal » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:28 pm







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Re: The monk's rule of never sharing experiences... a cover

Postby Jhana4 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:32 pm

In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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Re: The monk's rule of never sharing experiences... a cover

Postby Jhana4 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:38 pm

In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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Re: The monk's rule of never sharing experiences... a cover

Postby Kumara » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:23 am

I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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Re: The monk's rule of never sharing experiences... a cover

Postby dagon » Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:08 am


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Re: The monk's rule of never sharing experiences... a cover

Postby Kenshou » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:24 am


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Re: The monk's rule of never sharing experiences... a cover

Postby Kim OHara » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:42 pm


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David N. Snyder
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Re: The monk's rule of never sharing experiences... a cover

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:34 am

Here are the relevant Vinaya quotes, regarding this issue in the OP:

Should any bhikkhu report (his own) superior human state, when it is factual, to an unordained person, it is to be confessed.
Pācittiya 8

A violation to be confessed, not a major violation; if the report is factual. If it is false, then it is a Pārājika (defeat).

Should any bhikkhu, without direct knowledge, claim a superior human state, a truly noble distinction of knowledge and vision, as present in himself, saying, "Thus do I know; thus do I see," such that regardless of whether or not he is cross-examined on a later occasion, he — being remorseful and desirous of purification — might say, "Friends, not knowing, I said I know; not seeing, I said I see — vainly, falsely, idly," unless it was from over-estimation, he also is defeated and no longer in affiliation.
Suttavibhanga III.90-91
PTS version, Volume 1, pages 151-158

The background stories to it seem logical; that if monks and nuns were allowed to broadcast their attainments, there might be disparities in dana given to monastics of various qualities and also encourage deceit in others.

Note that this is for monks and nuns, not lay people. A lay person making claims cannot be defeated (obviously) since they are not in robes, however they would be violating the 4th precept (of the 5 lay precepts) only if it is not factual.
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Re: The monk's rule of never sharing experiences... a cover

Postby Jhana4 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:57 pm

Thanks David for improving the quality of this thread with a scholarly reference.

I am a bit disappointed that the reason behind the rule is only for practical purposes ( making sure all monks get fed ). I always assumed it was to avoid the nonsense that results whenever someone goes around bragging "I have achieved X,Y, & Z"
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.


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