Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

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Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

Postby SarathW » Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:12 am

Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?
Please forgive me for bringing this hot topic question that never seems to get an answer.
But I am asking the question in a different angle.
If my present existence is due to my past ignorance (self view – not knowing four noble truths etc) then I can say that I have a self.
If I do not eliminate the self view in this life I will continue in to the future.
Though there is no permanent and unchanging entity, the thought “I” will continue in to the future or my ignorance (self view) continue to the future.
“I think so I am”
So based on that assumption, can I say that I have a self view so I have a self until I attain Nirvana?
:shrug:
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Re: Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

Postby chownah » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:14 am

I'm not sure but I think you are saying that a self view causes a self to exist. I think that generally speaking views do not cause things to exist....views are just views, they are not causative agents......I guess.....don't know for sure.......
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Re: Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

Postby pegembara » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:46 am

We determine things into existence through use of conventions. We see a small child lost in a forest but the tiger sees food. Me, you, he, she, mom, dad are all conventions and only exist in our minds. In the same way self is a convention. This does not mean that there is nothing out there but the way to freedom is inwards.

You have a self view so you have a self until you attain Nirvana. That attainment is always here and now; not some time in the future.The Dhamma is Sanditthiko(Apparent here and now), Akaliko(Timeless), Ehipassiko(Encouraging investigation), Opanayiko(Leading inwards), Paccattam veditabbo vinnuhi ti (To be experienced by the wise).

Appearances are determined into existence. Why must we determine them? Because they don't intrinsically exist. For example, suppose somebody wanted to make a marker. He would take a piece of wood or a rock and place it on the ground, and then call it a marker. Actually it's not a marker. There isn't any marker, that's why you must determine it into existence. In the same way we ''determine'' cities, people, cattle - everything! Why must we determine these things? Because originally they do not exist.

Concepts such as ''monk'' and ''layperson'' are also ''determinations.'' We determine these things into existence because intrinsically they aren't here. It's like having an empty dish - you can put anything you like into it because it's empty. This is the nature of determined reality. Men and women are simply determined concepts, as are all the things around us.

If we know the truth of determinations clearly, we will know that there are no beings, because ''beings'' are determined things. Understanding that these things are simply determinations, you can be at peace. But if you believe that the person, being, the ''mine,'' the ''theirs,'' and so on are intrinsic qualities, then you must laugh and cry over them. These are the proliferation of conditioning factors. If we take such things to be ours there will always be suffering. This is micch?ditthi, wrong view. Names are not intrinsic realities, they are provisional truths. Only after we are born do we obtain names, isn't that so? Or did you have your name already when you were born? The name comes afterwards, right? Why must we determine these names? Because intrinsically they aren't there.
http://www.amaravati.org/teachingsofaja ... cle/480/P4
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

Postby SarathW » Tue May 20, 2014 12:46 am

Why does the Tathagata not declare the sense-data categorically as
true or false? He knows that, given ignorance, they are true, and that they
are falsified only when ignorance fades away in one who sees the
cessation. It is for such a person that the sense-bases appear as false and
consciousness appears as a conjurer’s trick.
Fortified with that understanding, he does not categorically assert the
sense-data as true, nor does he reprimand those who assert them as the
truth. That is why the Buddha advocates a tolerant attitude in this
discourse. This is the typical attitude of an understanding elder to the
questions put by an inquisitive toddler.

P566
http://www.seeingthroughthenet.net/file ... led_VI.pdf
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Re: Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

Postby Goofaholix » Tue May 20, 2014 1:46 am

Self is a view, it's conceptual.

So yes self view is created by self view.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

Postby Ananda26 » Tue May 20, 2014 2:30 pm

SarathW wrote:Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?
Please forgive me for bringing this hot topic question that never seems to get an answer.
But I am asking the question in a different angle.
If my present existence is due to my past ignorance (self view – not knowing four noble truths etc) then I can say that I have a self.
If I do not eliminate the self view in this life I will continue in to the future.
Though there is no permanent and unchanging entity, the thought “I” will continue in to the future or my ignorance (self view) continue to the future.
“I think so I am”
So based on that assumption, can I say that I have a self view so I have a self until I attain Nirvana?
:shrug:


Non self is an advanced subject.
An Arahant can refer to himself conventionally, but in the absolute sense he regards form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness as not self.

The problem with viewing the 5 aggregates affected by clinging as self is that they are impermanent and subject to change. Then with the change of the 5 aggregates arises sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress.

One does not regard the 5 aggregates affected by clinging as self. Then with the change of the 5 aggregates there does not arise sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress.
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Re: Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

Postby Sam Vara » Tue May 20, 2014 7:35 pm

Ajahn Thanissaro talks of
the craving to become something — in other words, to take on an identity in a specific world of experience. The identity often plays into the world, the world plays into the identity. Whatever identity you build around a desire will then determine the parts of the world you pay attention to, in terms of whether they help or hinder you from attaining that desire. At the same time, whichever world you're thinking about right now — whether it's the world of sports, politics, or your family — will then determine the kind of identity you want to take on in that world. And we crave these things.

Having a particular view of ourselves as things in the world means that we crave certain experiences as a means of keeping that identity going. And that fabricated craving can, of course, lead to a new or reinforced sense of self, and so on.
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