I would like to discuss the other four...

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I would like to discuss the other four...

Postby fabianfred » Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:42 am

Praise for the Sangha ...morning and evening chanting

yad idam i.e., the four pairs −

cattāri purisa-yugāni attha purisa-puggalā, the eight types − of Noble Ones:

esa bhagavato sāvaka-sangho That is the Sangha of the Blessed One’s disciples −


Everyone talks about the Four types of Noble Ones...Arahant to Sotapanna.....and by this they refer to the ones who have attained to the fruit....but nobody mentions the other four...the stage of path.

Magga ....Phala .....Path....Fruit.

Those who have attained the fruit have already attained to that stage and are experiencing the fruits and knowledge thereof.
Very little is mentioned about those who have attained to the Path....but have yet to attain the fruit.

I have heard that one who attains the Path....if they have yet to attain the Fruit...then upon death will do so.
fabianfred
 
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Re: I would like to discuss the other four...

Postby fabianfred » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:06 am

http://www.palicanon...ses-on-entering

SN Chapter IV - 25 Okkantisaṃyutta Connected Discourses on Entering


Hits: 61
1 The Eye

At Sāvatthī. “Bhikkhus, the eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The ear … The nose … The tongue … The body … The mind is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. One who places faith in these teachings and resolves on them thus is called a faith-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry.268

One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom is called a Dhamma-follower,269 one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry.

“One who knows and sees these teachings thus is called a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination.”270


2 Forms

At Sāvatthī. “Bhikkhus, forms are impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Sounds … Odours … Tastes … Tactile objects … Mental phenomena are impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. [226] One who places faith in these teachings and resolves on them thus is called a faith-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness…; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry.

“One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom is called a Dhamma-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness…; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry.

“One who knows and sees these teachings thus is called a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination.”


3 Consciousness

At Sāvatthī. “Bhikkhus, eye-consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Ear-consciousness … Nose-consciousness … Tongue-consciousness … Body-consciousness … Mind-consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. One who … with enlightenment as his destination.”


4 Contact

At Sāvatthī. “Bhikkhus, eye-contact is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Ear-contact … Nose-contact … Tongue-contact … Body-contact … Mind-contact is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. One who … with enlightenment as his destination.”


5 Feeling

At Sāvatthī. “Bhikkhus, feeling born of eye-contact is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Feeling born of ear-contact … Feeling born of nose-contact … Feeling born of tongue-contact … Feeling born of body-contact … Feeling born of mind-contact is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. One who … with enlightenment as his destination.” [227]

6 Perception

At Sāvatthī. “Bhikkhus, perception of forms is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Perception of sounds … Perception of odours … Perception of tastes … Perception of tactile objects … Perception of mental phenomena is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. One who … with enlightenment as his destination.”


7 Volition

At Sāvatthī. “Bhikkhus, volition regarding forms is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Volition regarding sounds … Volition regarding odours … Volition regarding tastes … Volition regarding tactile objects … Volition regarding mental phenomena is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. One who … with enlightenment as his destination.”


8 Craving

At Sāvatthī. “Bhikkhus, craving for forms is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Craving for sounds … Craving for odours … Craving for tastes … Craving for tactile objects … Craving for mental phenomena is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. One who … with enlightenment as his destination.”


9 Elements

At Sāvatthī. “Bhikkhus, the earth element is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The water element … The heat element … The air element … The space element … The consciousness element is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. 271 One who … with enlightenment as his destination.”


10 Aggregates

At Sāvatthī. “Bhikkhus, form is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Feeling … Perception … Volitional formations … Consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. One who places faith in these teachings and resolves on them thus is called a faith-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, [228] entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry.

One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom is called a Dhamma-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry.

“One who knows and sees these teachings thus is called a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination.”

268 The faith-follower (saddhānusārī) and the Dhamma-follower (dhammānusārī), described just below, are the two classes of disciples who are practising for realization of the fruit of stream-entry. The two are the lowest ranking members of a comprehensive sevenfold typology of noble disciples found, with formal definitions, at MN I 477-79. The seven types are also defined, somewhat differently, at Pp 14-15 (§§30-36) and at Vism 659-60 (Ppn 21:74-78). The faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower are also distinguished at 55:24 (V 377,8-24) and 55:25 (V 379,10-21), though the terms themselves are not used there. At 48:12-17they come at the end of the more usual list of noble persons, in place of the one practising for the realization of the fruit of stream-entry, and here the faith-follower is placed below the Dhamma-follower for the reason that his faculties are weaker.
Briefly, the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower differ with regard to their dominant faculty: the former relies on faith as the vehicle of progress, the latter on wisdom. When they attain the fruit of stream-entry, the former becomes “one liberated by faith” (saddhāvimutta; see MN I 478,29-34), the latter “one attained by view” (diṭṭhippatta; see MN I 478,18-23).

According to the Abhidhamma system, with its conception of the supramundane path as lasting for only a single mind-moment, both the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower should be such for only the one mind-moment of the path. This interpretation, however, though advocated by the commentaries, is difficult to reconcile with the Nikāyas. For an interesting discussion of the two models, see Gethin, The Buddhist Path to Awakening, pp. 129-33.

Spk explains “the fixed course of rightness” (sammattaniyāma ) as the noble path (ariyamagga). On the clause, “he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry,” Spk says that once the path has arisen there can be no obstruction to the fruit. It quotes Pp 13 (§20): “Should this person be one practising for the realization of the fruit of stream-entry, and should it be the time when the aeon is to burn up, the aeon will not burn up until that person realizes the fruit of stream-entry.”


269 On the Dhamma-follower, see n. 268. The commentaries do not clarify the syntax of the expression ime dhammā evaṃ paññāya mattaso nijjhānaṃ khamanti. Though nijjhānamis accusative, in English idiom it is more naturally rendered with an ablative sense.
Spk: Mattaso nijjhānaṃ khamantī ti pamāṇato olokanaṃ khamanti; “Accepted after being pondered to a sufficient degree”: accepted in measure (through) examination. Spkpṭ: Olokanan ti saccābhisamayasaṅkhātaṃ dassanaṃ; khamanti sahanti, ñayantī ti attho; “Examination”: vision consisting in the breakthrough to the truths. “Accepted”: consented to, meaning “are known.”

Spk-pṭ is trying to identify the Dhamma-follower’s “examination” or “pondering” of the teachings with the breakthrough to the truths achieved on the occasion of stream-entry, but the sutta itself distinguishes them, the former being merely preliminary to the latter.


270 This statement makes it clear how the stream-enterer differs from those on the way to stream-entry. The faith-follower accepts the teachings on trust (with a limited degree of understanding), the Dhamma-follower through investigation; but the stream-enterer has known and seen the teachings directly. I read with Se: evaṃ jānāti evaṃ passati.
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