Are these the teachings of the Buddha?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Are these the teachings of the Buddha?

Postby starter » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:56 pm

'Suppose a monk were to say: "Friends, I heard and received this from the Lord's own lips: this is the Dhamma, this is the discipline, this is the Master's teaching", then, monks, you should neither approve nor disapprove his words. Then, without approving or disapproving, his words and ex­pressions should be carefully noted and compared with the Suttas and reviewed in the light of the discipline. If they, on such comparison and review, are found not to conform to the Suttas or the discipline, the conclusion must be: "Assuredly this is not the word of the Buddha, it has been wrongly un­derstood by this monk", and the matter is to be rejected. But where on such comparison and review they are found to con­form to the Suttas or the discipline, the conclusion must be: "Assuredly this is the word of the Buddha, it has been rightly understood by this monk."

"'I shall not come to my final passing away, Evil One, until my bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, laymen and laywomen, have come to be true disciples — wise, well disciplined, apt and learned, (knowers and) preservers of the Dhamma, living according to the Dhamma, abiding by the appropriate conduct, and having learned the Master's word, are able to expound it, preach it, proclaim it, establish it, reveal it, explain it in detail, and make it clear; until, when false teachings arise, they shall be able to refute them thoroughly and well, and to preach this convincing and liberating Dhamma.'

- DN 16 Mahāparinibbāna Sutta - The Great Passing, The Buddha's Last Days
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Re: Are these the teachings of the Buddha?

Postby starter » Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:34 am

Greetings!

Today I happened to see the following:

"Do not dwell in the past, do not dwell in the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment.

Gautama Buddha"

I haven't encountered such a teaching in the suttas. For what the Buddha has actually taught concerning this topic, please see the following thread:

"Did the Buddha teach us to dwell only in the present?"
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=18131

Metta to all!

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Re: Are these the teachings of the Buddha?

Postby BlackBird » Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:27 am

Hi there Starter

There's a sutta in the Majjhima Nikaya - Bhaddekaratta Sutta - 131, 2 & 3 (in it's various forms iirc), I forget the analysis but I have memorised the verse:

Let one not revive the past or on the future build his hopes
For the past has been left behind, and the future has not yet been reached
Instead with insight let him see, each presently arisen state.
Let him know it and be sure of it, invincibly, unshakeably.
Today the effort must be made, tommorow death may come, who knows?
No bargain with mortality can keep him and his hordes away.
Bit one who dwells thus ardently,
Relentlessly by day, by night
It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said,
Who has had a single excellent night."


So to say that the Buddha said: "Do not dwell in the past or the future but concentrate on the present" - Well it's not a direct quote, but I don't think it's all that far off - If one were to add that one should observe one's present state with insight (ie. the four foundations).

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Are these the teachings of the Buddha?

Postby starter » Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:03 pm

Hello BlackBird,

Thanks for your input. We'd better read the more complete version of MN 131 Bhaddekaratta Sutta An Auspicious Day:

The Blessed One said: "Monks, I will teach you the summary & exposition of one who has had an auspicious day. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks replied.

The Blessed One said:

You shouldn't chase after the past
or place expectations on the future.
What is past
is left behind.
The future
is as yet unreached.
Whatever dhamma (phenomenon) is present
you clearly see right there,
right there.
Not taken in, [not vanquished, invincible]
unshaken,
that's how you develop the heart.
Ardently doing
what should be done today,
for — who knows? — tomorrow
death.
There is no bargaining
with Mortality & his mighty horde.

Whoever lives thus ardently,
relentlessly
both day & night,
has truly had an auspicious day:
so says the Peaceful Sage.

"And how, monks, does one chase after the past? One gets carried away with the delight of [BB: "One nurtures delight there thinking] 'In the past I had such a form (body)'... 'In the past I had such a feeling'... 'In the past I had such a perception'... 'In the past I had such a volition'... 'In the past I had such a consciousness.' This is called chasing after the past.

"And how does one not chase after the past? One does not get carried away with the delight of [BB: "One does not nurture delight there thinking] 'In the past I had such a form (body)'... 'In the past I had such a feeling'... 'In the past I had such a perception'... 'In the past I had such a volition'... 'In the past I had such a consciousness.' This is called not chasing after the past.

"And how does one place expectations on the future? One gets carried away with the delight of [BB: "One nurtures delight there thinking] 'In the future I might have such a form (body)'... 'In the future I might have such a feeling'... 'In the future I might have such a perception'... 'In the future I might have such a volition'... 'In the future I might have such a consciousness.' This is called placing expectations on the future.

"And how does one not place expectations on the future? One does not get carried away with the delight of [BB: "One does not nurture delight there thinking] 'In the future I might have such a form (body)'... 'In the future I might have such a feeling'... 'In the future I might have such a perception'... 'In the future I might have such a thought-fabrication'... 'In the future I might have such a consciousness.' This is called not placing expectations on the future.

"And how is one taken in with regard to present phenomena? [BB: And how, bhikkus, is one vanquished in regard to presently arisen states?] There is the case where an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person who has not seen the noble ones, is not versed in the teachings of the noble ones, is not trained in the teachings of the noble ones, sees form as self, or self as possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form.

"He/she sees feeling as self, or self as possessing feeling, or feeling as in self, or self as in feeling.

"He/she sees perception as self, or self as possessing perception, or perception as in self, or self as in perception.

"He/she sees volitions as self, or self as possessing volitions, or volitions as in self, or self as in volitions.

"He/she sees consciousness as self, or self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. This is called being taken in with regard to present phenomena.

"And how is one not taken in with regard to present phenomena? [BB: And how, bhikkus, is one invincible in regard to presently arisen states?]There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones who has seen the noble ones, is versed in the teachings of the noble ones, is well-trained in the teachings of the noble ones, does not see form as self, or self as possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form.

"He/she does not see feeling as self, or self as possessing feeling, or feeling as in self, or self as in feeling.

"He/she does not see perception as self, or self as possessing perception, or perception as in self, or self as in perception.

"He/she does not see volitions as self, or self as possessing volitions, or volitions as in self, or self as in volitions.

"He/she does not see consciousness as self, or self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. This is called not being taken in with regard to present phenomena."

As I mentioned in the thread “Did the Buddha teach us to dwell only in the present?”, it all boils down to a matter of appropriate or inappropriate attention/reflection/consideration. If it's yoniso manasikara, one can dwell on the past as well as on the future, as taught in MN 131, MN 61, MN 111, and other suttas. If it's not yoniso manasikara (e.g. longing for / sorrowing over the past or the future), one can't even dwell so on the present. I think it’s important for the starters to cultivate yoniso manasikara and right thinking, including reflecting over the past and future actions, during the first stage (sila) of practice. Present-moment awareness can be cultivated more later in the second stage (Samadhi) after the practice of sila.

Metta to all!

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Last edited by starter on Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are these the teachings of the Buddha?

Postby Mkoll » Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:32 pm

Suhemanta

When the goal has 100 marks and bears 100 signs, the person who sees but one part is a fool, but he who sees 100 is clever.

-Verse 106 from the Theragatha, trans. by K.R. Norman

I find this a good thing to keep in mind when looking at any single aspect of Dhamma, e.g. quotations or single suttas.
Peace,
James
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Re: Are these the teachings of the Buddha?

Postby BlackBird » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:07 pm

Hi Starter. You're preaching to the converted mate :)
But I much prefer Ven. Bodhi's translation to the one you've posted, that may be a matter of personal preference however.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Are these the teachings of the Buddha?

Postby starter » Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:01 pm

Hello "Converted Mate",

I've added Ven. Bodhi's key translation in the above-sited sutta. To me, both translations have the same meaning -- we should practice yoniso manasikara regarding the past, the future and the present.

I was not trying to convert you, but just to convey my own reflection. :anjali:

Thanks and metta,

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Re: Are these the teachings of the Buddha?

Postby BlackBird » Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:07 pm

Hi starter, I didn't mean that you were trying to convert anyone. The idiom 'preaching to the converted':
"to try to persuade people to believe things they already believe "

:)
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Are these the teachings of the Buddha?

Postby Kim OHara » Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:49 pm

BlackBird wrote:Hi starter, I didn't mean that you were trying to convert anyone. The idiom 'preaching to the converted':
"to try to persuade people to believe things they already believe "

:)

Hi, BlackBird,
Your miscommunication may have been caused by punctuation, not idiom: "You're preaching to the converted mate," is not the same as, "You're preaching to the converted, mate."
Blame your primary school English teacher. :tongue:

:namaste:
Kim
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Re: Are these the teachings of the Buddha?

Postby BlackBird » Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:11 am

I think laziness is more to blame than my dear old primary school teachers. But rest assured the irony is no longer lost on me, so thanks for your post ;)
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Are these the teachings of the Buddha?

Postby starter » Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:48 pm

Greetings!

I recommend the following threads relevant to the discussion about MN 131:

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=5565&p=87706#p86851

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=19122

Especially this website dedicated to fake Buddha quotes:

http://www.fakebuddhaquotes.com/fake-bu ... the-day-4/

If I read this website earlier, we could have saved quite some time here.

Metta to all!
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