Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby obo » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:02 am

Hello Santa!

Actually there're a lot of suttas that explicitly spell it out. Let me know if you find any sutta reference mentioning stream entry with the existence of the 3 fetters.


I can see the drift of your mind here, but you should know that the absence of positive evidence that the 3 fetters are not needed is not proof of the fact that they are needed.

On the contrary, the absence of the statement that they are needed in suttas such as the one I quoted above and the similar ones in that samyutta and elsewhere, where the requirements for assuming one is a streamwinner are explicitly spelled out in the absense of any mention of the one-truth [or own-body-] view, or the inadequacy of ethics and rituals to in the task of ending Pain is sufficient proof that they are not required.

To say that Gotama forgot to mention them when they were in fact required, would be to accuse him of a grievous error, giving people false hope, and falsify his claim to have taught the Dhamma well.

The term Sotaapanna means 'stream-enterer'. One who has entered. The stream is the course leading to Nibbaana which is against the stream of the ordinary person. Entering does not imply having crossed. Entering the stream is what happens when a person for however slight a period recognizes the problem of rebirth and of persuit of that which changes and sees in Gotama's Dhamma a possible solution.

On the one hand the tendency to speculate is encouraging in that even this much is sadly lacking today, on the other hand a more fruitful approach would be to put aside the tendency to speculate and use in stead the technique of trial and error. Try to understand what Gotama said in the words in which he said it, let go trying to reformulate what he said in the terms you understand. Baring wrong translations you will find that what Gotama has said was well said precisely as he said it.

I am sorry I will be unable to pursue this dialog futher with you as tonight is my last night connected to the internet. I wish you and the other seekers here the best of luck and progress on your journey.
Best wishes!
obo
may all beings be well and happy
and my I act with friendliness towards all living beings
in whatsoever of the 10 directions they may abide,
may I be sympathetic to their pains and sorrows,
empathize with their situations
and be at all times objectively detached
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby SarathW » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:25 am

Thanks everyone for your input.
Hi Retro/Santa
My line of thinking is based on the following. Will this change your opeinion.
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“In the following passage, Ven. Khemaka — a monk who has attained the level of non-returner, and so has cut the first five fetters — indicates how self-identity views may be cut even though the mind has yet to cut the conceit, "I am," which ends only at the level of full awakening.”
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stud ... tream.html
------------------------------------
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby santa100 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:40 am

SarathW wrote:Thanks everyone for your input.
Hi Retro/Santa
My line of thinking is based on the following. Will this change your opeinion.
-------------------------------------------
“In the following passage, Ven. Khemaka — a monk who has attained the level of non-returner, and so has cut the first five fetters — indicates how self-identity views may be cut even though the mind has yet to cut the conceit, "I am," which ends only at the level of full awakening.”
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stud ... tream.html


Ven. Bodhi clarified the SN 22.89 as below:
This passage clarifies the essential difference between the sekha and the arahant. While the sekha has eliminated identity view and thus no longer identifies any of the five aggregates as a self, he has not yet eradicated ignorance, which sustains a residual conceit and desire “I am” (anusahagato asmi ti mano asmi ti chando) in relation to the five aggregates. The arahant, in contrast, has eradicated ignorance, the root of all misconceptions, and thus no longer entertains any ideas of “I” and “mine.” The other elders apparently had not yet attained any stage of awakening and thus did not understand this difference, but the Venerable Khemaka must have been at least a stream-enterer [Spk-pt: some hold he was a nonreturner, others a once-returner] and thus knew that the elimination of identity view does not completely remove the sense of personal identity. Even for the nonreturner, an “odour of subjectivity” based on the five aggregates still lingers over his experience.


In short, it's the self-identity "view" that has been eliminated at stream entry. The conceit "I am" is still there because "ignorance" is still there. The Arahant has eradicated ignorance and thus no more trace of conceit left in him. A quick example, for a chain smoker who's trying to quit smoking, while he's eliminated the wrong "view" that smoking doesn't do any harm to one's health, he's still "drawn" toward the sight and smell of a cigarette. That's why he's a sekha, the one "still in training". Only when he's completely clean, he'll be called "asekha", one "beyond training". At that stage, not only the wrong view has been eliminated, but also the "inclination" towards cigarettes would be gone too..
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby SarathW » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:57 am

View,View,View
Ignorance,Ignorance,Ignorance
I see the difference now. :D
No wonder why it is so hard to eradicate ignorance!
You are most helpful.
Thanks.
:namaste:
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby SarathW » Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:00 am

In daily reading I found the following which applicable to tis post.

----------------
The texts express this point in a variety of ways. Some passages simply list the Fetters that Non-returners have yet to abandon: passion for form, passion for formlessness, conceit, restlessness, & ignorance. Others give more experiential accounts of what is happening in a Non-returner's mind. From reading these latter accounts it is possible to see how the five Fetters in the list are interconnected: Although Non-returners shed attachment to identity views back when they attained Stream entry, they still have a lingering sense of the conceit 'I am', associated with the five aggregates for sustenance — possessing form & formless — as they function subtly in the arising of tranquility & insight as a process of becoming. And while they have gained enough insight into the five senses to let go of any attachment to them, they still suffer from a certain amount of ignorance concerning the subtler level of becoming inherent in that conceit. This leads to refined forms of passion & delight that keep them restless & bound to the sixth sense: the mind.


'There is the case, Ānanda, where a monk... enters & remains in the first jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perceptions, fabrications, & consciousness as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, empty, not self.

'He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the phenomenon [dhamma] of deathlessness: "This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishing of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; stopping; Unbinding." Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the effluents. Or, if not, then — through this very Dhamma-passion, this very Dhamma-delight, and from the total ending of the first five Fetters — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world. [Similarly with each of the remaining levels of jhāna.]'

=======================
As the text makes clear, Stream-winners and Once-returners are those who have fully developed virtue, Non-returners are those who have fully developed virtue & concentration, and Arahants are those who have fully developed all three parts of the path: virtue, concentration, & discernment.

This is not to say, however, that Stream-winners have not developed discernment to a fairly high degree. In fact, the unvarying definition of Stream-winners is that they have 'seen with discernment,' and their level of Awakening is called the arising of the Dhamma eye. What they see with this Dhamma eye is always expressed in the same terms:
Then Ven. Assaji gave this exposition of Dhamma to Sāriputta the Wanderer:

'Whatever phenomena arise from a cause:
their cause
& their cessation.
Such is the teaching of the Tathāgata,
the Great Contemplative.'


Then to Sāriputta the wanderer, as he heard this exposition of Dhamma, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.

— Mv 1.23.5


— MN 64
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... e/2-4.html
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby SarathW » Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:42 am

Some relevant comments regard to this post.
Great book to read! (Thanks Retro) :)
==========

Greed and delusion in their weaker forms are entirely eliminated on attaining Arahatship, while
hatred down to its weakest form is fully abandoned at the stage of the non-returner. Section II of
our text applies, therefore, only to actions performed at these stages of final emancipation. Only
then are these actions finally “given up” so that they can no longer lead to a future rebirth. It is
thus only at Arahatship that all three unwholesome roots are “entirely gone,” though they are
decisively weakened at the earlier three stages of emancipation.

Page 23:

http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh251.pdf
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby SarathW » Thu May 08, 2014 2:52 am

Something interesting:

The five hindrances are obstacles to concentration. They are: sensual desire, ill
will, sloth & drowsiness, restlessness & anxiety, and uncertainty. The discussion
of these hindrances under this fourth frame of reference lists five things to notice
with regard to each hindrance: when it is present; when it is absent; how it arises;
how—once arisen—it is abandoned; and how there will be no future arising of it
once it has been abandoned. This last point refers to the stage of the practice
when that particular hindrance is gone for good. If we identify the hindrances
simply as hindrances to concentration, this stage would be stream entry in the
case of uncertainty,
and non-return in every other case, for non-return is the
level of awakening where concentration is fully mastered (AN 3:85 [Thai: 3:87]).
If we identify the hindrances with the deeper and subtler fetters that share their
names, then uncertainty would be overcome with stream entry; sensuality and ill
will with non-return; and restlessness with arahantship

P 134
http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writ ... 120810.pdf
=============
Does this meaning you are a stream enterer, when you eliminate doubt?
Does this mean that you have eliminated personality view when you eliminate doubt?
Last edited by SarathW on Thu May 08, 2014 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby BlackBird » Thu May 08, 2014 4:50 am

Sadhunasari and Dhammanusaris are descriptions of how one attained to the path of stream entry, there are no material differences in fetters between the two, it is merely the orientation - By faith or by the teachings. There is absolutely no support in the Suttas for anyone who would say otherwise. There is however support for the idea that a Saddha or Dhamma 'nusari can be one attained to the path but not the fruit of stream entry and indeed that path and fruit are not arrived at simultaneously.

To be clear, the first three fetters are fully eliminated by one attained to the fruit (phala) of stream entry. I just don't see any wriggle room on that, but eel-wriggle some inevitably will.

with metta
Jack
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'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby Ananda26 » Wed May 14, 2014 2:52 pm

SarathW wrote:The way I understand, the three fetters are attenuated by attaining Sotapanna and will be fully eradicated only by realising Nibbana.
Am I correct?
Three fetters are:
1. belief in a self (sakkāya-diṭṭhi)
2. doubt (vicikicchā)
3. attachment to rites and rituals (sīlabbata-parāmāso)[


3 fetters are completely abandoned by the Stream Winner. 3 fetters are abandoned and lust, hatred, and delusion are weakened in a Once-Returner. The 5 lower fetters are completely abandoned in a Never Returner. All 10 fetters are completely abandoned by the Arahant.
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby Mkoll » Wed May 14, 2014 2:57 pm

Ananda26 wrote:
SarathW wrote:The way I understand, the three fetters are attenuated by attaining Sotapanna and will be fully eradicated only by realising Nibbana.
Am I correct?
Three fetters are:
1. belief in a self (sakkāya-diṭṭhi)
2. doubt (vicikicchā)
3. attachment to rites and rituals (sīlabbata-parāmāso)[


3 fetters are completely abandoned by the Stream Winner. 3 fetters are abandoned and lust, hatred, and delusion are weakened in a Once-Returner. The 5 lower fetters are completely abandoned in a Never Returner. All 10 fetters are completely abandoned by the Arahant.


This.

There's no need to complicate things any further. Keep things simple for yourself.
Peace,
James
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