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Disappointment with sanghas. No refugee

Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:50 am
by suriyopama
I have always been disappointed with all the sanghas that I have found so far (in Spain, France, and Thailand).

The reasons are multiple, like weird teachings, rituals, attachments to power and money, private jets…
Now I can understand why Ajahn Mun left everything behind and went to dwell alone in the forest!

I can not take refugee in something that I do not trust. I do not see the means of repeating “Sangham saranam gacchami”.

Can we do as the Dhammapada says?: “Be islands unto yourselves, be your own refuge, having no other; let the Dhamma be an island and a refuge to you, having no other.” ?

Re: Disappointment with sanghas. No refugee

Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:01 am
by Ben
I am sorry you feel that way, Suriyopama.
Still, giving dana to monks is a very meritorious act.
with metta,

Ben

Re: Disappointment with sanghas. No refugee

Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:07 am
by suriyopama
Thank you Ben.

I wish that someday I can find a suitable Sangha, because I do not always have enough energy to practice by myself. I fall very easily into sloth and torpor.

I still offer food to the monks in the morning, but now I am reluctant about putting my money onto that big boxes at the Wat anymore.

Re: Disappointment with sanghas. No refugee

Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:43 am
by Aloka
suriyopama wrote:I have always been disappointed with all the sanghas that I have found so far (in Spain, France, and Thailand).

The reasons are multiple, like weird teachings, rituals, attachments to power and money, private jets…
Now I can understand why Ajahn Mun left everything behind and went to dwell alone in the forest!

I can not take refugee in something that I do not trust. I do not see the means of repeating “Sangham saranam gacchami”.

Can we do as the Dhammapada says?: “Be islands unto yourselves, be your own refuge, having no other; let the Dhamma be an island and a refuge to you, having no other.” ?

Hi suriyopama,

I'm so sorry to read about your difficulties. I definately haven't experienced anything like that on my visits to Amaravati Theravada Thai Forest Tradition monastery in the UK. (The previous abbot there was Ajahn Sumedho and the present one is Ajahn Amaro.)

I hope that you will eventually find somewhere like that in your travels. Don't give up hope!

With metta,

Aloka

Re: Disappointment with sanghas. No refugee

Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:03 am
by Bhikkhu Pesala
Please read the Ledi Sayādaw's Manual of the Dhamma carefully. It may help you to resolve some of your conflicts.

It may be hard to find good monks in Bangkok, but I am sure there are some if you know where to look. If not, then head out to the forest monasteries.

Wat Tamao, in Lampang, was also a very well run Pariyatti monastery when I was there many years ago.

Re: Disappointment with sanghas. No refugee

Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:06 am
by nekete
suriyopama wrote:I have always been disappointed with all the sanghas that I have found so far (in Spain, France, and Thailand).

The reasons are multiple, like weird teachings, rituals, attachments to power and money, private jets…
Now I can understand why Ajahn Mun left everything behind and went to dwell alone in the forest!

I can not take refugee in something that I do not trust. I do not see the means of repeating “Sangham saranam gacchami”.

Can we do as the Dhammapada says?: “Be islands unto yourselves, be your own refuge, having no other; let the Dhamma be an island and a refuge to you, having no other.” ?
Which Sangha have you found in Spain?

Re: Disappointment with sanghas. No refugee

Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:21 am
by Kare
suriyopama wrote:I have always been disappointed with all the sanghas that I have found so far (in Spain, France, and Thailand).

The reasons are multiple, like weird teachings, rituals, attachments to power and money, private jets…
Now I can understand why Ajahn Mun left everything behind and went to dwell alone in the forest!

I can not take refugee in something that I do not trust. I do not see the means of repeating “Sangham saranam gacchami”.

Can we do as the Dhammapada says?: “Be islands unto yourselves, be your own refuge, having no other; let the Dhamma be an island and a refuge to you, having no other.” ?
Sangha has two meanings. It can be what we ordinarily understand as a Sangha: The group of ordinated monks (or nuns). But it can also mean the Ariya-Sangha, that is arahants, non-returners, once-returners and stream-enterers. And when you take refuge in the Sangha, it is the Ariya-Sangha you take refuge in.

This means that the Sangha you take refuge in, is the idealized group of Ariya-Sangha, not the physical group of people in yellow robes that you may see around you. So when you see some substandard monks, just ignore them. Forget the monks that do not keep up the noble standards. They are not the Sangha you are taking refuge in. Instead, think of the noble arahants etc., wherever they may be, and take refuge in them. And if they are not close at hand, follow the Dhammapada verse you quoted above.

Re: Disappointment with sanghas. No refugee

Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:05 am
by Dan74
suriyopama wrote:I have always been disappointed with all the sanghas that I have found so far (in Spain, France, and Thailand).

The reasons are multiple, like weird teachings, rituals, attachments to power and money, private jets…
Now I can understand why Ajahn Mun left everything behind and went to dwell alone in the forest!

I can not take refugee in something that I do not trust. I do not see the means of repeating “Sangham saranam gacchami”.

Can we do as the Dhammapada says?: “Be islands unto yourselves, be your own refuge, having no other; let the Dhamma be an island and a refuge to you, having no other.” ?
I have sometimes felt similarly myself but then I try to see if a Sangha or teacher have something valuable to share rather than wondering if I agree or approve of everything they do. If I am able to learn from them and progress in my practice, then it is a good Sangha, I think.

Re: Disappointment with sanghas. No refugee

Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:11 am
by Mr Man
Kare wrote: This means that the Sangha you take refuge in, is the idealized group of Ariya-Sangha, not the physical group of people in yellow robes that you may see around you. So when you see some substandard monks, just ignore them. Forget the monks that do not keep up the noble standards. They are not the Sangha you are taking refuge in. Instead, think of the noble arahants etc., wherever they may be, and take refuge in them. And if they are not close at hand, follow the Dhammapada verse you quoted above.
:goodpost:

Re: Disappointment with sanghas. No refugee

Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:16 am
by Coyote
My personal opinion regarding giving to "bad" monks: If you give, you lose nothing if the monk decides to inappropriately use his requisites. That is his choice, and not something you have a say in. I don't think you are supporting their immorality. You, however, only gain from the action of giving, which is wholesome. Unless you have another choice, perhaps focus on the wholesome act not on what is done with your gift?

Re: Disappointment with sanghas. No refugee

Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:13 pm
by BlackBird
Funny isn't it, I was just reading a sutta passage tonight that I think is relevant.

"In future times, Ananda, there will be members of the clan who are 'yellow necks', immoral, of evil character. People will give gifts to those immoral persons for the sake of the Sangha. Even then, I say, an offering made to the Sangha is incalculable, immeasurable. And I say that in no way is a gift to a person individually ever more fruitfal than an offering made to the Sangha." - MN 142.

In other respects, I think it pays to keep some context to things, yes there is a lot of corruption in the Sangha, and yes it's important that we recognise it and bring attention to such matters. But let's not forget the countless thousands of ardent yogis still practicing meditation all those good monks still out there who are keeping good vinaya, all those good laypeople still keeping the precepts, those of us who are still intent on Nibbana. There are still plenty of good people on this Earth, and while that holds true, don't spend too much time focusing on those who aren't. Let be what will be and use your abilities to change what is within your reach :)

metta
Jack

Re: Disappointment with sanghas. No refugee

Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:23 pm
by lyndon taylor
Do we really think the corruption among ordained monks and nuns is greater than corruption among lay followers?? Just asking??

Re: Disappointment with sanghas. No refugee

Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:03 pm
by binocular
Kare wrote:Sangha has two meanings. It can be what we ordinarily understand as a Sangha: The group of ordinated monks (or nuns). But it can also mean the Ariya-Sangha, that is arahants, non-returners, once-returners and stream-enterers. And when you take refuge in the Sangha, it is the Ariya-Sangha you take refuge in.

This means that the Sangha you take refuge in, is the idealized group of Ariya-Sangha, not the physical group of people in yellow robes that you may see around you. So when you see some substandard monks, just ignore them. Forget the monks that do not keep up the noble standards. They are not the Sangha you are taking refuge in. Instead, think of the noble arahants etc., wherever they may be, and take refuge in them. And if they are not close at hand, follow the Dhammapada verse you quoted above.
In my experience and insight, one can apply the above only if one already has considerable faith and investment in Buddhism. Without sufficient faith and investment, one might not have the discernment that is necessary to apply the above instruction.

Re: Disappointment with sanghas. No refugee

Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:06 pm
by purple planet
I think a good solution to this is : donate food to monks donate money to a charity organization

Re: Disappointment with sanghas. No refugee

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:35 am
by suriyopama
Thank you very much for all your kind responses.
kare wrote:Sangha has two meanings. It can be what we ordinarily understand as a Sangha: The group of ordinated monks (or nuns). But it can also mean the Ariya-Sangha, that is arahants, non-returners, once-returners and stream-enterers. And when you take refuge in the Sangha, it is the Ariya-Sangha you take refuge in.

This means that the Sangha you take refuge in, is the idealized group of Ariya-Sangha, not the physical group of people in yellow robes that you may see around you. So when you see some substandard monks, just ignore them. Forget the monks that do not keep up the noble standards. They are not the Sangha you are taking refuge in. Instead, think of the noble arahants etc., wherever they may be, and take refuge in them. And if they are not close at hand, follow the Dhammapada verse you quoted above.
:goodpost:
nekete wrote:Which Sangha have you found in Spain?
That one was not Theravada. Tibetan “weekend” monks that have a mundane Lay Life and business, and only dress the robes when they go to the temple during the weekend. Anyway, there is also a Theravada Association in Spain that requires to pay a compulsory fee in order to be a member.