No views are acceptable to me

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

No views are acceptable to me

Postby clw_uk » Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:26 am

I was hoping to discuss this interesting sutta

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....074.than.html

Some interesting points. First of all LongNails the wanderer states that "Nothing is acceptable to me" to which the Buddha replies

"But even this view of yours, Aggivessana — 'All is not pleasing to me' — is even that not pleasing to you?'"



Indicating that Longnails is attached to his own rejection of all views and so, in contradiction, holds a view. Also we could read into this that Longnails is still subject to dukkha since he rejects all doctrines and is therefore subject to aversion, that is craving for non-existence.

"With regard to those brahmans & contemplatives who are of the view, of the opinion, 'All is pleasing to me': A wise person among them considers that 'If I were to grasp and insist firmly on this view of mine that "All is pleasing to me," and to state that "Only this is true, all else is worthless," I would clash with two — the brahman or contemplative who is of the view, of the opinion that "All is not pleasing to me" and the brahman or contemplative who is of the view, of the opinion that "A part is pleasing to me; a part is not pleasing to me." I would clash with these two. Where there is a clash, there is dispute. Where there is a dispute, quarreling. Where there is quarreling, annoyance. Where there is annoyance, frustration.' Envisioning for himself clash, dispute, quarreling, annoyance, frustration, he both abandons that view and does not cling to another view. Thus there is the abandoning of these views; thus there is the relinquishing of these views.
Here Buddha teaches that clinging to any view, be it radical acceptance, radical scepticism or holding to one view and excluding others, leads to quarrels and disputes and so leads to Dukkha.

"Now, Aggivessana, this body — endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother & father, nourished with rice & porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, and dispersion — should be envisioned as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. In one who envisions the body as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self, any desire for the body, attraction to the body, following after the body is abandoned.

"There are these three kinds of feeling: a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling, and neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. On the occasion when one feels a pleasant feeling, one does not feel either a painful feeling or a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. One feels only a pleasant feeling on that occasion. On the occasion when one feels a painful feeling, one does not feel either a pleasant feeling or a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. One feels only a painful feeling on that occasion. On the occasion when one feels a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling, one does not feel either a pleasant feeling or a painful feeling. One feels only a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling on that occasion.

"A pleasant feeling is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing. A painful feeling is also inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing. A neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling is also inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing.

"Seeing this, an instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with pleasant feeling, disenchanted with painful feeling, disenchanted with neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. Disenchanted, he grows dispassionate. From dispassion, he is released. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns, 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' A monk whose mind is thus released does not take sides with anyone, does not dispute with anyone. He words things by means of what is said in the world but without grasping at it."
Here the Buddha teaches that when one is mindful and sees with correct wisdom then one grows dispassionate towards the body and towards feelings. When one has grown dispassionate towards the body and towards feelings then dependent co-origination has stopped and all dukkha has ceased.


This is relevant to the rest of the Sutta because the Buddha is teaching that all views are dependently arisen and come from craving, from clinging and creating "I am", for example "I like this view, this view is correct and all others are wrong".

When one no longer clings then there is no "self" and so there is no taking up of doctrines and views. Doctrines and views are seen as impermanent, dukkha if grasped and not-self.

This is why Buddha didnt discuss metaphysical questions and why metaphysics and ultimate questions of self or no-self were not answered by the Buddha.


"A monk whose mind is thus released does not take sides with anyone, does not dispute with anyone. He words things by means of what is said in the world but without grasping at it."




Thoughts?
Last edited by clw_uk on Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:13 am, edited 4 times in total.
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3308
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: No views are acceptable to me

Postby clw_uk » Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:28 am

In addition

"So you don't know entirely what views Gotama the contemplative has or even that the monks have. Then tell us what views you have."

"It wouldn't be difficult for me to expound to you what views I have. But please let the venerable ones expound each in line with his position, and then it won't be difficult for me to expound to you what views I have."

When this had been said, one of the wanderers said to Anathapindika the householder, "The cosmos is eternal. Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless. This is the sort of view I have."

Another wanderer said to Anathapindika, "The cosmos is not eternal. Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless. This is the sort of view I have."

Another wanderer said, "The cosmos is finite... The cosmos is infinite... The soul & the body are the same... The soul is one thing and the body another... After death a Tathagata exists... After death a Tathagata does not exist... After death a Tathagata both does & does not exist... After death a Tathagata neither does nor does not exist. Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless. This is the sort of view I have."

When this had been said, Anathapindika the householder said to the wanderers, "As for the venerable one who says, 'The cosmos is eternal. Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless. This is the sort of view I have,' his view arises from his own inappropriate attention or in dependence on the words of another. Now this view has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated. Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. This venerable one thus adheres to that very stress, submits himself to that very stress." (Similarly for the other positions.)



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....093.than.html

Here Anathapindika teaches that views come into being via dependent co-arising. They arise when there is contact between a sense base and external object, which leads to the arising of feeling. For example there is a person hearing Jesus teaching there is eternal life. His words make contact with his ear and a feeling is produced, either pleasant, unpleasant of neutral. If it is a pleasant feeling (so the person agrees with jesus, based on kammic tendencies) he will grasp at it and so adhere to it so that this is then his view.

However as the process has shown, the view is impermanent, dependently risen and so dukkha if clung to, as it can change, for example losing ones faith can cause despair. It will also lead to disputes and arguments with people of an opposite doctrine.




When this had been said, the wanderers said to Anathapindika the householder, "We have each & every one expounded to you in line with our own positions. Now tell us what views you have."

"Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. This is the sort of view I have."

"So, householder, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. You thus adhere to that very stress, submit yourself to that very stress."

"Venerable sirs, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. Having seen this well with right discernment as it actually is present, I also discern the higher escape from it as it actually is present."

When this had been said, the wanderers fell silent, abashed, sitting with their shoulders drooping, their heads down, brooding, at a loss for words. Anathapindika the householder, perceiving that the wanderers were silent, abashed... at a loss for words, got up & went to where the Blessed One was staying. On arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, he sat to one side. As he was seated there, he told the Blessed One the entirety of his conversation with the wanderers.



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....093.than.html

Here the wanders try to accuse Anathapindika of holding to a view himself and so submitting himself to stress as well. However Anathapindika teaches them that while his view is also dependently co-arisen, he can see this because of the view and so he does not cling to it. He is detached from the view.

This ties into the simile of the raft

"In the same way, monks, have I shown to you the Teaching's similitude to a raft: as having the purpose of crossing over, not the purpose of being clung to.



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a.../wheel048.html



We have right view to lead us out of all views

Then we no longer cling to anything, be it the body, feelings or views and opinions
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3308
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom


Return to General Theravāda discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: delacey, dhammapal, Exabot [Bot], JeffR, Majestic-12 [Bot] and 14 guests