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Is there a real world out there?...

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:25 pm
by Spiny Norman
...or is it all "beyond range"?
Retro and I touched on this recently and I thought it might be interesting to explore this question in more detail. Below is an exchange between us which hopefully sets the scene ( copied in from the Contemplating Anicca thread ).
Your thoughts?


Spiny Norman:
Yes, the focus with Theravada vipassana is on experience, but that experience doesn't occur in a vacuum.

Retrofurist:
It occurs here...
SN 35.23:
"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."
"As you say, lord," the monks responded.
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."

Spiny Norman
But forms, aromas etc are external. And see for example SN35.4, the section headed "The external as impermanent", where is says: "Forms..sounds..odours...tastes..tactile objects..are impermanent".
And a distinction is made in the suttas between the internal and the external, for example repeatedly in the Satipatthana Sutta and in suttas decribing the elements.

Re: Is there a real world out there?...

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:53 pm
by santa100
SN 22.56 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html )provides the definition of forms:
And what, bhikkhus, is form? The four great elements and the form derived from the four great elements: this is called form. With the arising of nutriment there is the arising of form. With the cessation of nutriment there is the cessation of form.
The 4 great elements are water, earth, fire, air, and Piya Tan's info. on "derived" forms:
Derived form was mentioned in SN 22.56. Although the “derived forms” (upada, rupa, later Pali upadaya,rupa) are mentioned here, their analysis first appears in the Abhidhamma Pitaka(Dhs 596; Tkp 3, qu at Vism 535; Tkp 89, 109; Vism 444), according to which there are 24 “derived forms,” namely: (1-5) the five sense faculties (pasada,rupa): seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, body; (6-9) the four sense objects: form, sound, smell, smell, taste (touch being identical with three of the primary elements, viz earth, fire and wind); (10) femininity (itthatta/itth’indriya); (11) masculinity (purisatta/-puris’indriya); (12) physical base of the mind (hadaya,vatthu); (13) physical life (rupa,jivita); (14) material quality of food (ahara,rupa); (15) the space element (akasa,dhatu); (16) bodily intimation (kaya,vinnatti), (17) verbal intimation (vaci,vinnatti); (18) lightness (physical agility) (rupassa lahuta), (19) malleability (physical elasticity) (rupassa muduta), (20) wieldiness (physical adaptability) (rupassa kammannata); (21) physical growth (rupassa upacaya); (22) physical continuity (rupassa santati); (23) decay (rupassa jarata) and (24) impermanence (rupassa aniccata).8 The Abhidhammattha,sangaha lists 28 “material phenomena” by adding the 4 primary elements (earth, water, fire, wind) to the head of the list

Re: Is there a real world out there?...

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:15 pm
by reflection
You can never prove it, because whatever information you gather will always come through the six senses. If a sutta says there is an external world, does it make it true? Is it to be taken literal or as a teaching aid? Again you read it with your eyes, think about it with your mind, but it is not proof of something external. So you could take it is there, on faith or reasoning. Or, I decided that it doesn't matter.

Re: Is there a real world out there?...

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:22 pm
by chownah
Indeed it can not be proven as far as I have ever been able to find out. I have for a long time asked if anyone can describe even theoretically a way to prove or disprove the existence of a real world out there and so far no one has been able to come up with it......about as close as you can come is to just say that it sure SEEMS like there is a real world out there but of course this proves nothing....and really doesn't the phrase "beyond range" sort of mean the same thing as "unprovable" in this context?
chownah

P.S. take another look at the list that santa100 posted.....masculinity and femininity are listed as forms as is lightness....how much sense does this make in a discussion about the real world out there?
chownah

Re: Is there a real world out there?...

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:12 pm
by Mindstar
They once asked the Buddha:
What is the Cause of a Phenomenon?

He replied:
Attention (manasikara) is the cause of any phenomenon!
Why so?
When Attention is present, the Phenomenon appears...
When Attention is absent, the Phenomenon disappears!


A phenomenon is an experienced state! An appearance, an observed event, a conscious occasion!
Whether experienced as a mental object: Ex: An experienced thought, idea, feeling, mood etc.
or experienced as a physical object: Ex: An experienced sight, sound, smell, taste or touch;
the experience is just a mental ‘state’, which is what in Buddhism is called a ‘Dhamma’ , which
is a passing moment of conscious time… As such: Everything in any world is just a mental state!
No thing exists as an independent physical object, until it is observed by a mental experience…
Before and after this direct observation, this ‘thing’ remains just an ‘idea’ or ‘’imagination’ …
A mere potential possibility! Not quite as real anymore… Any phenomenon is an experienced
object, a neurally generated image, a mere representation, and not the object itself!
An image of an apple, is not the apple itself...

Re: Is there a real world out there?...

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:02 pm
by mikenz66
Interesting question Spiny,

I agree with Chownah and Reflection that all we have to work with is our experience, and speculation about whether or not there are external things, and/or how well can we know them are outside the scope of Buddha-Dhamma.

To me, any attempt to confirm or deny that there is a "real world" misses the point. That most of us, in ordinary life, or in more technical areas such as science, use a working model that there is something out there, and that is what we are measuring or experiencing, and use language that builds in that assumption. We don't necessarily take it seriously, but we don't waste time thinking:
"I will go into the laboratory and measure the wavelength of this light that may or may not be real with this apparatus that also may or may not be real. And, by the way, my very concept of wavelength is built on the assumption of ..."
I sometimes see criticisms that so-an-so ancient or modern teacher is making unfounded ontological assumptions. I think that such criticisms often arise from taking the language and working model too seriously, and can swing wildly in the opposite, just as beside-the-point, direction.

:anjali:
Mike

Re: Is there a real world out there?...

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:44 pm
by kirk5a
mikenz66 wrote:To me, any attempt to confirm or deny that there is a "real world" misses the point.
I don't know where this quotation is from, but I think it goes well into "denial" territory.
No thing exists as an independent physical object, until it is observed by a mental experience…
Before and after this direct observation, this ‘thing’ remains just an ‘idea’ or ‘’imagination’ …
A mere potential possibility! Not quite as real anymore…
I think whoever said this is proclaiming that my physical body is just an "idea" or "imagination" until that person would happen to be looking at it.

Re: Is there a real world out there?...

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:56 pm
by mikenz66
Yes, that's the sort of thing I was thinking of. I don't see such speculation as having any use in a Dhamma sense.

:anjali:
Mike

Re: Is there a real world out there?...

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:59 pm
by kirk5a
Or heck, going by the logic presented here, there is no way to prove the existence of my own brain. When's the last time anyone saw their own pancreas? Anyone want to deny they have a brain or a pancreas?

Re: Is there a real world out there?...

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:02 pm
by kirk5a
Anyone willing to say they are sincerely agnostic about whether their liver exists?

Re: Is there a real world out there?...

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:04 pm
by retrofuturist
Greetings Kirk,

That quote, as it stands, would make more sense if it was talking about something being a "phenomena" rather than "existing".
Wikipedia definition of phenomenon wrote:A phenomenon (Greek: φαινόμενoν, from the Greek word "phainómenon" or "phaenómenon", from the verb "phanein", to show, shine, appear, to be manifest (or manifest itself)), plural phenomena, is any observable occurrence. Phenomena are often, but not always, understood as 'appearances' or 'experiences'.
There is also the possibility that they mean "independent physical object" in the sense of some discrete sub-set of the universe being object-ified as an "independent physical object" ... for example, a tree is only an "independent physical object" from the forest (or universe for that matter) if it is regarded as a tree.

It's hard to make too much of the quote without additional context.

Back to Spiny's intended line of questioning, I agree with Mike's statement that "any attempt to confirm or deny that there is a "real world" misses the point", although unlike Mike I would not bold the word "deny" because I do not find either possibility any more troublesome than the other. Same with liver.
SN 12.15 wrote:Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?"

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.
Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Is there a real world out there?...

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:05 pm
by Prasadachitta
The question of whether or not there is a real world out there requires us to have a working definition of "real". To be honest I'm not clear on how I understand it. If we look at the translated quote
"This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain,"

I think it is helpful to point out that the Buddha is criticizing the rejection of experience as we know it with the declaration that there is some other "thing" or "reality" that is outside of or separate from it.

To infer that there are circumstances outside of but in some form of relationship to our experience is logical, often very helpful and indeed I think irrefutable. What we must come to terms with is that it still remains an inference which is both generally reliable and profoundly fallible.

Prasadachitta

Re: Is there a real world out there?...

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:23 pm
by kirk5a
retrofuturist wrote:Back to Spiny's intended line of questioning, I agree with Mike's statement that "any attempt to confirm or deny that there is a "real world" misses the point", although unlike Mike I would not bold the word "deny" because I do not find either possibility any more troublesome than the other. Same with liver.
Same with liver? So you're sincerely agnostic about whether you have a liver?

Re: Is there a real world out there?...

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:35 pm
by retrofuturist
Greetings Kirk,
kirk5a wrote:Same with liver? So you're sincerely agnostic about whether you have a liver?
I would never have object-ified "liver" as an independent physical object if no one had ever told me about livers, their function, and so on.... I would have just regarded this lump as "body".

What about you? Would you have object-ified "liver" as an independent physical object if no one had ever told you about livers, their function, and so on.? Without that objectification would we be having this discussion?

All in all, it's less about agnosticism than it is about the fabrication of perceptions of existence/non-existence. When one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Is there a real world out there?...

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:52 pm
by SarathW
Hi Spiny
Say I showed you a block of land with some timber.
Then you saw a wild rabbit hiding behind timber.
You said "Look, there is a rabbit hiding behind timber"
Say a week after I took you to the same place. Then you told me me “Oh, you built a house”
Then I said “No, it is just a pile of timber put them in order”
Then the rabbit came out and said. “Yes Spiny, you are right, Sarath destroy my house and build his own house!” ;) :)