Can mind exist without matter?

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SarathW
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Re: Can mind exist without matter?

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Re: Can mind exist without matter?

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SarathW wrote:The way I understand, mind is arising with mater (gross or subtle) and it is not possible mind to exist without matter.
Don't the suttas describe formless realms, where presumably there is mind without matter?
See here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... /loka.html

Some variations of the dependent origination formula describe a mutual dependence between form and consciousness, but I assume that just applies to the form realms?
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can mind exist without matter?

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retrofuturist wrote: So, in short, nāma-rūpa as "name and form" rather than "mentality and materiality"?
As I understand it the suttas support both options.
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SarathW
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Re: Can mind exist without matter?

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Hi SN
Thanks. This is the problem I have.
It says that there are Nama and Rupa in Kama-loka.
=================
Rupa means:
Material form (Ruppa) –This includes body, sex and seat of consciousness.
The body-decade is composed of the Four Primary Elements –Extension, cohesion, heat, motion (Pathavi, apo, tejo, vayo)

===============
Does this mean that Rupa-loka beings have above Rupa? What type of Rupa they have? Are they like human?

Does this mean, Arupa-loka beings do not have Rupa? Is space etc considered as non matter? Isn’t the space cold?
:shrug:
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Re: Can mind exist without matter?

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SarathW wrote: Does this mean, Arupa-loka beings do not have Rupa? Is space etc considered as non matter? Isn’t the space cold?
:shrug:
"Arupa" means formless, so yes, presumably beings in arupa-loka don't have rupa, they are pure consciousness.

Note that space is an element, along with consciousness. In some suttas, like MN140, these 2 elements are added to the 4 elements of form, ie earth, wind, fire and water. So it looks like space and consciousness are formless elements.
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Re: Can mind exist without matter?

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Or maybe they could be seen as elements whose presence is implied when any of the other four primary elements are mentioned. Thus they're even more elemental than elements. For example, two of the formless realms are infinite space and consciousness where there is no form: earth, water, fire, or air. How can there be earth, water, fire, or air without a space for them to be in or a consciousness to perceive them?

Although this is just rampant speculation... :stirthepot:

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Re: Can mind exist without matter?

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"Arupa" means formless, so yes, presumably beings in arupa-loka don't have rupa, they are pure consciousness.
This raises some questions about what sense we can make of a formless or immaterial realm which contains formless beings. How could we distinguish them? What would mark the boundary between one formless being and another?
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Re: Can mind exist without matter?

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Mkoll wrote:For example, two of the formless realms are infinite space and consciousness where there is no form: earth, water, fire, or air. How can there be earth, water, fire, or air without a space for them to be in or a consciousness to perceive them?
I came across this - does it make things any clearer?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formless_Realm

It might help to explore the relationship between the arupa-jhanas and the formless realms.
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Re: Can mind exist without matter?

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Sam Vara wrote:
"Arupa" means formless, so yes, presumably beings in arupa-loka don't have rupa, they are pure consciousness.
This raises some questions about what sense we can make of a formless or immaterial realm which contains formless beings. How could we distinguish them? What would mark the boundary between one formless being and another?
Presumably it would be about the locality of consciousness?
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Re: Can mind exist without matter?

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Spiny Norman wrote:
Sam Vara wrote:
"Arupa" means formless, so yes, presumably beings in arupa-loka don't have rupa, they are pure consciousness.
This raises some questions about what sense we can make of a formless or immaterial realm which contains formless beings. How could we distinguish them? What would mark the boundary between one formless being and another?
Presumably it would be about the locality of consciousness?
Yes, that's my point. What sense can we make of locality in the absence of matter? All our terms of locality relate to stuff in this world. Is one consciousness "North of" of or "to the left of" another consciousness, and how do we know where one ends and another begins?
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Re: Can mind exist without matter?

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Sam Vara wrote: Yes, that's my point. What sense can we make of locality in the absence of matter? All our terms of locality relate to stuff in this world. Is one consciousness "North of" of or "to the left of" another consciousness, and how do we know where one ends and another begins?
As I observed earlier space and consciousness appear to be formless elements, so presumably there could be location without form / matter.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Can mind exist without matter?

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Spiny Norman wrote:
Sam Vara wrote: Yes, that's my point. What sense can we make of locality in the absence of matter? All our terms of locality relate to stuff in this world. Is one consciousness "North of" of or "to the left of" another consciousness, and how do we know where one ends and another begins?
As I observed earlier space and consciousness appear to be formless elements, so presumably there could be location without form / matter.
Yes, I agree entirely with your deduction here. I'm just wondering what it would be like - how we could make any sense of such a situation. I think location and separation are essentially about form. I believe Richard Gombrich says somewhere that the whole idea of formless realms is a cosmological afterthought added after the Buddha's death. I'll have a look when I get home, and post again.
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Re: Can mind exist without matter?

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Here's the Gombrich bit. He is speaking of the post-mortem destination of the Non-Returner.
By that time the brahma-worlds themselves had been banalized and made much more like ordinary heavens, the non-returner needed something better, and the weirdly abstract strata of the so-called formless worlds, named after states of advanced meditations, were added on to accommodate him. Since those worlds are formless, their inhabitants can have no bodies. So how do bodiless beings have locations? One begins to suspect that the non-returner began his career as a figment of satire.
What the Buddha thought, p.90
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Re: Can mind exist without matter?

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Sam Vara wrote:Here's the Gombrich bit. He is speaking of the post-mortem destination of the Non-Returner.
By that time the brahma-worlds themselves had been banalized and made much more like ordinary heavens, the non-returner needed something better, and the weirdly abstract strata of the so-called formless worlds, named after states of advanced meditations, were added on to accommodate him. Since those worlds are formless, their inhabitants can have no bodies. So how do bodiless beings have locations? One begins to suspect that the non-returner began his career as a figment of satire.
What the Buddha thought, p.90
Are there sutta references to support this claim from Gombrich, specifically the claim that non-returners arise in the formless worlds? The page at accesstoinsight on The Thirty-one Planes of Existence seems to place non-returners in the rupaloka, and specifically says that in the arupaloka beings are unable to hear Dhamma teachings. Unfortunately, the accesstoinsight page doesn't seem to have links to suttas to offer strong support for its claims, either. The notion of non-returners seems to appear in many places in the canon, and the notion of inhabitants of the formless realms (independent of the notion of non-returners) seems to be supported by DN 15
DN 15: Maha-nidana Sutta wrote: "There are beings who,with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' arrive at the dimension of the infinitude of space. This is the fifth station of consciousness.

"There are beings who, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' arrive at the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. This is the sixth station of consciousness.

"There are beings who, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' arrive at the dimension of nothingness. This is the seventh station of consciousness.
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Re: Can mind exist without matter?

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culaavuso wrote:
Are there sutta references to support this claim from Gombrich, specifically the claim that non-returners arise in the formless worlds? The page at accesstoinsight on The Thirty-one Planes of Existence seems to place non-returners in the rupaloka, and specifically says that in the arupaloka beings are unable to hear Dhamma teachings. Unfortunately, the accesstoinsight page doesn't seem to have links to suttas to offer strong support for its claims, either. The notion of non-returners seems to appear in many places in the canon, and the notion of inhabitants of the formless realms (independent of the notion of non-returners) seems to be supported by DN 15
DN 15: Maha-nidana Sutta wrote: "There are beings who,with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' arrive at the dimension of the infinitude of space. This is the fifth station of consciousness.

"There are beings who, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' arrive at the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. This is the sixth station of consciousness.

"There are beings who, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' arrive at the dimension of nothingness. This is the seventh station of consciousness.
He doesn't give sutta references at that point, but the destination of the non-returner is not the issue here. It is whether we are able to make sense of a being or beings who are formless. Gombrich seems to think that the fact that we cannot, supports the idea that the "non-returner" concept has been misconstrued by the Buddha's followers at some stage, and then been written into the suttas.
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