Bertrand Russell and rebirth

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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kmath
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Re: Bertrand Russell and rebirth

Post by kmath »

Alex123 wrote:
binocular wrote:It would be demoralizing not to believe there is a moral order to the universe.
Demoralization is morally undesirable.
There is a moral advantage in believing that there is a moral order in the universe.
The doctrine of karma and rebirth provides the best theory of the workings of moral order.
Therefore there is a moral advantage in accepting the doctrine of karma and rebirth.
Just because something makes one feel better, that by itself doesn't make it right.
Thanks for your response binocular, but I agree with Alex.

Does anyone else have a reason to believe in rebirth?
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FatDaddy
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Re: Bertrand Russell and rebirth

Post by FatDaddy »

[/quote] Does anyone else have a reason to believe in rebirth?[/quote]

I don't have any reason to "believe" in rebirth but I have reasons to live as if it were true. It is a three dimensional model of cause and effect. Every physical, verbal and mental action has an effect in this life and/or beyond this life. I think arguing about literal truth or falshood of rebirth may miss the point. It is not scientific but it is extremely useful to me.
Happy, at rest,
may all beings be happy at heart.
Whatever beings there may be,
weak or strong, without exception,
long, large,
middling, short,
subtle, blatant,
seen & unseen,
near & far, born & seeking birth: May all beings be happy at heart.

Let no one deceive another
or despise anyone anywhere,
or through anger or irritation
wish for another to suffer.
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binocular
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Re: Bertrand Russell and rebirth

Post by binocular »

Alex123 wrote:Just because something makes one feel better, that by itself doesn't make it right.
Nobody argued it does.

Just try to do things that continue to not make you feel better.
But I guess you already know how that goes and where that leads.

It seems to me that concepts of God, soul, eternal life, kamma, etc was thought up to deal with difficulties and mortality of oneself and loved ones.

World doesn't have to follow our wishes. World is what it is.
And you already know full well what the world is?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
binocular
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Re: Bertrand Russell and rebirth

Post by binocular »

daverupa wrote:
binocular wrote:It would be demoralizing not to believe there is a moral order to the universe.
This claim is unsupported.
Well, try living like there is no moral order in the universe.
Even the strictest moral relativist forgets about his moral relativism when his own arse is on the line.

Morality demands that we ought to aspire to become as good as we can be.
This phrasing obscures the various moralities which are on offer in the world, and then takes a preferred result as the only possible result, which is disingenuous.
You're obscuring that humans are moral beings. And while particular moralities differ from one culture to another, even from one individual to another, we all have one thing in common: we aspire to become as good as we can, even as our notions of "good" may differ. The principle of desiring to become good is the same for all.

:zzz:
:strawman:
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
binocular
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Re: Bertrand Russell and rebirth

Post by binocular »

kmath wrote:The point is that testimony of others is unreliable when it comes to mystical experience. Sure, if you recall your own past lives, then of course you'd believe in rebirth. But when it comes to the recollections of others, we must suspend judgement. That's his point.
If that's his point, then it's an extremely naive point.
Even preschoolers know not to simply believe everything the other kids tell them.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Alex123
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Re: Bertrand Russell and rebirth

Post by Alex123 »

binocular wrote:And you already know full well what the world is?
Through all the pain that I've experienced and stories of other people, I can assure you that it is not all honey. Imperfect situations happen. Body doesn't "ask my permission" to get sick, hurt or die. Sometimes even if one does everything right, something bad happens and totally ruins everything. What I see is that clever, shrewd, manipulative, lying and egotistical people get ahead and trample the ethical and honest ones. It is a faith that "God/Kamma will sort everything out". The world is built upon eat or be eaten. To live we have to eat, if not other animals, then fruits, vegetables, greens, plants, food which doesn't magically appear... The cheap products that we like to buy are jobs that are outsourced from rich nations to poor nations where it is produced by abused third world kids, or people living in poverty...

That is what I've implied by "World doesn't have to follow our wishes. World is what it is."
binocular
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Re: Bertrand Russell and rebirth

Post by binocular »

So per you then, the solution is to settle for bestiality?
How good is that working for you?

I agree - in this world, it's usually the ruthless, the aggressive, the cheaters who get ahead.
The fact of the matter is that some people have no qualms about killing, lying and stealing; and some do. I don't know why this is so.

Alex123 wrote:It is a faith that "God/Kamma will sort everything out".
Thanissaro Bhikkhu sometimes mentions the dichotomy between truths of the observer and truths of the will.
Truths of the observer are truths that hold regardless of the observer - such as truths about stars and atoms.

Truths of the will are truths that depend on the person in order to be true; if the person doesn't take the according action, nothing happens. Most things in our lives that are relevant to us, are truths of the will: relationships, careers, projects, our daily hygiene etc. Whether those things happen or not, and the way they happen, depends crucially on our actions, our will.

This is not to say that belief in God or belief in karma will make God or karma exist. But if we don't believe in the power of our action, we will act as if our actions don't matter, and so possibly won't see the results we desire.

If we act as if karma doesn't exist, we will be sure to see that it doesn't exist.
If we act as if karma doest exist, we will be sure to see that it does exist.
Some things are self-fulfilling, self-perpetuating like that.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: Bertrand Russell and rebirth

Post by Spiny Norman »

kmath wrote: Does anyone else have a reason to believe in rebirth?
As I've mentioned before I spend a lot of time observing nature, and I've noticed that a lot of natural processes are cyclical - so for me the possibility of a "round of rebirth" doesn't seem far-fetched.
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Alex123
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Re: Bertrand Russell and rebirth

Post by Alex123 »

binocular wrote:So per you then, the solution is to settle for bestiality?.
The best option for those who can, is to be a monk under Ajahn Brahm for example, and bliss out in jhāna every day...
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Polar Bear
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Re: Bertrand Russell and rebirth

Post by Polar Bear »

Bertrand Russell: "I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."

Another funny Russell quote, or so says the internet: "Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so."

Anyway, Alex, you seem to have some large qualms with certain facets of buddhist doctrine, but the whole of the contemplative human experience does not lie within buddhism. If I could recommend to you a wonderful book called Philosophy As A Way of Life I think you may rather enjoy it.

http://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-Way-Li ... 0631180338

:sage:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Kim OHara
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Re: Bertrand Russell and rebirth

Post by Kim OHara »

polarbuddha101 wrote:Bertrand Russell: "I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."

Another funny Russell quote, or so says the internet: "Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so."
He has got plenty of company on the second of these, e.g. Adlai Stevenson is said to have responded, “That’s not enough, madam, we need a majority!” when a woman called out to him “Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!” during one of his presidential campaigns.

:popcorn:
Kim
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Sam Vara
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Re: Bertrand Russell and rebirth

Post by Sam Vara »

Kim O'Hara wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:Bertrand Russell: "I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."

Another funny Russell quote, or so says the internet: "Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so."
He has got plenty of company on the second of these, e.g. Adlai Stevenson is said to have responded, “That’s not enough, madam, we need a majority!” when a woman called out to him “Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!” during one of his presidential campaigns.

:popcorn:
Kim
Drifting seriously off-topic now, but when I saw this I remembered the famous newspaper headline from a few years ago:

"Incest: more common than thought in the UK".
Spiny Norman
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Re: Bertrand Russell and rebirth

Post by Spiny Norman »

Alex123 wrote:...bliss out in jhāna every day...
But they say that "ignorance is bliss". :tongue:
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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reflection
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Re: Bertrand Russell and rebirth

Post by reflection »

kmath wrote:
reflection wrote:As said, "normal" perceptions aren't necessarily the truth. In meditation many of our perceptions change. Things we once thought were like this, turn out to be like that. Mostly, the sense of identity. Things we thought were "us" turn out to be not so, not self. And with a still and sharpened mind we can see these things we normally don't see. Of course, it can also happen people think they see something in meditation that actually was not that.

Then again, Russell didn't actually say that normal perceptions are true ones, only that they are more trustworthy than "abnormal" perceptions.

The point is that testimony of others is unreliable when it comes to mystical experience. Sure, if you recall your own past lives, then of course you'd believe in rebirth. But when it comes to the recollections of others, we must suspend judgement. That's his point.
Well, let me first say there is something to be said for this. But on the other hand, many people take on the idea of enlightenment out of faith also, or have faith in the results of meditation because teachers promise it. These things also are not personal experiences, but can still be a guide in life. For a moment assume rebirth is true, now what could be the problem to belief in it based on the words of others? No real hurt can come from it - the only thing that can happen is that it may (or will) one day be proven 100% true.

The danger of course is placing faith in things that are not true. And yes, people say lots of stuff about lots of things. If everybody would talk in terms of their own experiences I think that wouldn't pose much problems, but it clearly often happens people say things as if they have experienced it, but they don't really and instead they just have faith in it.
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kmath
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Re: Bertrand Russell and rebirth

Post by kmath »

polarbuddha101 wrote:Bertrand Russell: "I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."

Another funny Russell quote, or so says the internet: "Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so."

:sage:
Here's another one I like:

"When you are studying any matter, or considering any philosophy, ask yourself only: What are the facts, and what is the truth that the facts bear out. Never let yourself be diverted, either by what you wish to believe, or what you think could have beneficent social effects if it were believed; but look only and solely at what are the facts."

:thumbsup:
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