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Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:35 pm
by Lazy_eye
All,

During some recent discussions, I was reminded of a question brought up by Ven. Paññāsikhara in reference to nibbana/nirvana. Specifically, "is there a gnostic aim of Buddhism, i.e. an object of knowledge which is the goal, or is it sheer destruction of afflictions"?

When we look at the Buddha's accounts of his awakening, as described in the suttas, the answer appears to be yes. At all three watches of the night, the Buddha gains "knowledge".

"I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details...This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute.

"I discerned how they [beings] are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma. This was the second knowledge I attained in the second watch of the night..."

"I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'... This was the third knowledge I attained in the third watch of the night..."

To what extent do you see the path in terms of gnosis?

Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:22 pm
by mikenz66
Thanks for pointing out that excellent discussion, Lazy Eye...

:anjali:
Mike

Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?

Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:18 am
by PadmaPhala
in a way yes, so that there's no more ignorance.

Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?

Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:54 am
by Spiny Norman
Lazy_eye wrote: Specifically, "is there a gnostic aim of Buddhism, i.e. an object of knowledge which is the goal, or is it sheer destruction of afflictions"?
To what extent do you see the path in terms of gnosis?
IMO the suttas do describe a gnostic goal - and MN4 strongly suggests it is this knowledge which leads to the destruction of the afflictions and awakening.

For example in MN4: "I saw - by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human..."

And in SN56.11: "(Likewise,) in me, bhikkhus, in regard to things unheard before, there arose vision, knowledge, wisdom, true knowledge and light..."

Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?

Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:04 am
by tiltbillings
porpoise wrote:
Lazy_eye wrote: Specifically, "is there a gnostic aim of Buddhism, i.e. an object of knowledge which is the goal, or is it sheer destruction of afflictions"?
To what extent do you see the path in terms of gnosis?
IMO the suttas do describe a gnostic goal - and MN4 strongly suggests it is this knowledge which leads to the destruction of the afflictions and awakening.

For example in MN4: "I saw - by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human..."

And in SN56.11: "(Likewise,) in me, bhikkhus, in regard to things unheard before, there arose vision, knowledge, wisdom, true knowledge and light..."
But what is it knowledge of?

Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?

Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:03 am
by Mr Man
tiltbillings wrote:
porpoise wrote:
Lazy_eye wrote: Specifically, "is there a gnostic aim of Buddhism, i.e. an object of knowledge which is the goal, or is it sheer destruction of afflictions"?
To what extent do you see the path in terms of gnosis?
IMO the suttas do describe a gnostic goal - and MN4 strongly suggests it is this knowledge which leads to the destruction of the afflictions and awakening.

For example in MN4: "I saw - by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human..."

And in SN56.11: "(Likewise,) in me, bhikkhus, in regard to things unheard before, there arose vision, knowledge, wisdom, true knowledge and light..."
But what is it knowledge of?
cessation?

Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?

Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:11 am
by Coyote
Avijja is one of the afflictions, so the two goals are one and the same.

Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?

Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:40 am
by Spiny Norman
tiltbillings wrote:
porpoise wrote:IMO the suttas do describe a gnostic goal - and MN4 strongly suggests it is this knowledge which leads to the destruction of the afflictions and awakening.
For example in MN4: "I saw - by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human..."
And in SN56.11: "(Likewise,) in me, bhikkhus, in regard to things unheard before, there arose vision, knowledge, wisdom, true knowledge and light..."
But what is it knowledge of?
Probably we'll never know - this sutta suggests that what the Buddha taught was only a small fraction of what he "discovered": http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?

Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:56 am
by tiltbillings
porpoise wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
porpoise wrote:IMO the suttas do describe a gnostic goal - and MN4 strongly suggests it is this knowledge which leads to the destruction of the afflictions and awakening.
For example in MN4: "I saw - by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human..."
And in SN56.11: "(Likewise,) in me, bhikkhus, in regard to things unheard before, there arose vision, knowledge, wisdom, true knowledge and light..."
But what is it knowledge of?
Probably we'll never know - this sutta suggests that what the Buddha taught was only a small fraction of what he "discovered": http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Well, the only knowledge that is of any real importance is that which liberates, but I think we need to keep in mind that the Dhamma is not about accumulation.

Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?

Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 10:14 am
by Spiny Norman
tiltbillings wrote:
porpoise wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:But what is it knowledge of?
Probably we'll never know - this sutta suggests that what the Buddha taught was only a small fraction of what he "discovered": http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Well, the only knowledge that is of any real importance is that which liberates, but I think we need to keep in mind that the Dhamma is not about accumulation.
It seems that the Buddha made a pragmatic decision to teach the bits that were most conducive to liberation. I'm not sure I understand your point about accumulation - it seems to me that awakening means seeing things as they really are, the big picture, a radical transformation of perception and consciousness.

Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?

Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 10:48 am
by tiltbillings
porpoise wrote: I'm not sure I understand your point about accumulation - it seems to me that awakening means seeing things as they really are, the big picture, a radical transformation of perception and consciousness.
And all this is in the context of letting go.

Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?

Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 11:05 am
by reflection
We could find suttas which seem to point that understanding is a goal, but it is always understanding that leads to freedom. Then there are also various quotes that say the path is taught with the freedom of nibbana as its only goal. In a way wisdom and liberation are the same, but if we look upon it with a wrong view, they are not.

Some people may see the accumulation of knowledge as if it is their knowledge. Something new to attain or become. To become a wise person, able to share their views. It's not hard to get stuck in such an idea. On the other hand, those who are not interested in reality at all, might not investigate it enough. So it's the ground between those two where it's best to walk, I think. Training wisdom for the sake of letting it all go, wisdom itself included.

At certain points in my practice I had to convince myself it was better to investigate a state of mind, to get to see its source. At other points, I wanted to understand "it" in such a way that only caused more craving and restlessness. This happens when I wanted to understand it without having the clearer picture of why. It's not understanding to just know, it's understanding to be a bit more liberated. Also, I think it's wise not try to understand something outside our own experience, but always reflect back on our own meditation to understand that. The four noble truths are right there.

:anjali:

Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?

Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 1:23 pm
by Spiny Norman
tiltbillings wrote:
porpoise wrote: I'm not sure I understand your point about accumulation - it seems to me that awakening means seeing things as they really are, the big picture, a radical transformation of perception and consciousness.
And all this is in the context of letting go.
Could you say what you mean by "letting go"?

Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?

Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 1:59 pm
by tiltbillings
porpoise wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
porpoise wrote: I'm not sure I understand your point about accumulation - it seems to me that awakening means seeing things as they really are, the big picture, a radical transformation of perception and consciousness.
And all this is in the context of letting go.
Could you say what you mean by "letting go"?
To start:

  • If I stood still, I sank; If I struggled, I was carried away.
    Thus by neither standing still nor struggling, I crossed the flood.
    SN 1 1

    He who has nothing
    -- in front, behind, in between --
    the one with nothing
    who clings to no thing:
    he's what I call
    a brahman.
    Dhp 421

    Gone to the beyond of becoming,
    you let go of in front,
    let go of behind,
    let go of between.
    With a heart everywhere let-go,
    you don't come again to birth
    & aging.
    Dhp 348

    "Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya. "When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen; in the heard merely what is heard; in the sensed merely what is sensed, in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." Ud 10

Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?

Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 12:24 pm
by Spiny Norman
tiltbillings wrote: Gone to the beyond of becoming,
you let go of in front,
let go of behind,
let go of between.
With a heart everywhere let-go,
you don't come again to birth
& aging.
Dhp 348
Interesting quote. You seem to be pointing to "letting go" as a method of practice, but the OP seems more about the nature of the goal of practice, ie awakening - or am I missing the point?