Ajahn Brahm for sale?

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Gena1480
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Gena1480 »

does Ajahn Brahm consent his actions with the Sangha
or he makes decision himself?
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mikenz66
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by mikenz66 »

Can someone explain exactly what their objection to this is? Does it contravene some obscure rule in the Vinaya?

I don't see any logical difference from any Dhamma presentation, where teachings and dana is given freely, but perhaps I'm overlooking something.

:anjali:
Mike
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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

According to AN 5.177, the selling of human beings is wrong livelihood!

:jumping:
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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mikenz66
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by mikenz66 »

"May Master Gotama, together with the community of monks, acquiesce to my offer of tomorrow's meal."

The Blessed One acquiesced with silence.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:anjali:
Mike
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Cittasanto
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Cittasanto »

mikenz66 wrote:Can someone explain exactly what their objection to this is? Does it contravene some obscure rule in the Vinaya?

I don't see any logical difference from any Dhamma presentation, where teachings and dana is given freely, but perhaps I'm overlooking something.

:anjali:
Mike
nothing obscure, and can be found easily.
SN 42.10 Maniculaka Sutta: To Maniculaka wrote:"Now I do say that thatch may be sought for by one needing thatch, wood may be sought for by one needing wood, a cart may be sought for by one needing a cart, a workman may be sought for by one needing a workman, but by no means do I say that money may be consented to or sought for in any way at all."
Nissaggiya Pācittiya: Rules entailing forfeiture and confession wrote:18. Should any bhikkhu accept gold and silver, or have it accepted, or consent to its being deposited (near him), it is to be forfeited and confessed.

19. Should any bhikkhu engage in various types of monetary exchange, it (the income) is to be forfeited and confessed.

20. Should any bhikkhu engage in various types of trade, it (the article obtained) is to be forfeited and confessed.
he is trading himself for money to build.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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tiltbillings
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by tiltbillings »

Cittasanto wrote: he is trading himself for money to build.
Does he benefit from this, does he line his pockets, get a big fancy car, better food, silk robes, a nicer place to live?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Mr Man
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Mr Man »

mikenz66 wrote:Can someone explain exactly what their objection to this is? Does it contravene some obscure rule in the Vinaya?

I don't see any logical difference from any Dhamma presentation, where teachings and dana is given freely, but perhaps I'm overlooking something.
Hi Mike
My objection is that it degrades the symbolism of the mendicant. I also think it trivializes and is overly out of step with the tradition.
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Cittasanto
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Cittasanto »

tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: he is trading himself for money to build.
Does he benefit from this, does he line his pockets, get a big fancy car, better food, silk robes, a nicer place to live?
I will point you too the first quote.
it does not matter if he is benefitting in that way. he is allowing and being part of making himself a commodity in trade that is inappropriate.
Ud3.8 pinda sutta wrote:The monk going for alms,
supporting himself and no other:
The devas adore one who is Such
if he's not intent
on fame & praise.
DN2 wrote:"So after some time he abandons his mass of wealth, large or small; leaves his circle of relatives, large or small; shaves off his hair and beard, puts on the ochre robes, and goes forth from the household life into homelessness. Having thus gone forth he lives restrained in body, speech, and mind, content with the simplest food and shelter, delighting in solitude. Then suppose one of your men were to inform you: 'You should know, your majesty, that that man of yours — the farmer, the householder, the taxpayer swelling the royal treasury... has gone forth from the household life into homelessness... content with the simplest food and shelter, delighting in solitude.' Would you, thus informed, say, 'Bring that man back to me. Make him again be a farmer, a householder, a taxpayer swelling the royal treasury!'?"
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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tiltbillings
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by tiltbillings »

Cittasanto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: he is trading himself for money to build.
Does he benefit from this, does he line his pockets, get a big fancy car, better food, silk robes, a nicer place to live?
I will point you too the first quote.
it does not matter if he is benefitting in that way. he is allowing and being part of making himself a commodity in trade that is inappropriate.
Naughty Ajahn Brahm. Literalist Cittasanto.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

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manas
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by manas »

Sorry, on second thoughts, I thought it best to extinguish this post...this topic is a bit of a minefield, I will leave it to others more learned than I to comment

metta
Last edited by manas on Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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marc108
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by marc108 »

Are we all Vinaya experts? Has Ajahn Brahm broken any rules? Didn't Ajahm Brahm do the first make English translation of the Vinaya? My personal opinion is that he's likely done this because te nunnery is hurting for funds, and its not like hes taking the money or himself or his own monastery. Ajahn Brahm works tirelessly and gives of himself with complete generosity... He's done more to further the Dhamma than any of us could ever hope to. Not to mention he is a senior monk of 40 years. We may not personally like the 'auction' but to criticize him or cast sweeping judgements when none of us know the circumstances is IMO, unwise. 'Nit-picking' at its worst.
Last edited by marc108 on Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by tiltbillings »

marc108 wrote:Are we all Vinaya experts? Has Ajahn Brahm broken any rules? Didn't Ajahm Brahm do the first make English translation of the Vinaya? My personal opinion is that he's likely done this because te nunnery is hurtingl for funds. Ajahn Brahm works tirelessly and gives of himself with complete generosity... He's done more to further the Dhamma than any of us could ever hope to. Not to mention he is a senior monk of 40 years. We may not personally like the 'auction' but to criticize him or cast sweeping judgements when none of us know the circumstances is IMO, unwise. 'Nit-picking' at its worst.
Indeed.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Gena1480
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Gena1480 »

who am i to judge someone else actions
i'm not the owner of his actions
i'm the owner of my actions.
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Dan74
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Dan74 »

I thought this was quite common practice anyway, in that monks would spend time with the largest benefactors.
_/|\_
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