Ajahn Brahm for sale?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Ajahn Brahmali wrote:
... but by no means do I say that money may be consented to or sought for in any way at all.
What the poster does not mention is that this concerns becoming the owner of money oneself. Clearly, this is not what Ajahn Brahm is doing.
The 10 points discussed at the Second Council included accepting money "for the Sangha," not for one's personal needs.

Whether, its for one's own needs, or for the Sangha's needs, asking for monetary donations is not allowable. If an invitation is made, one can say what the Sangha needs.

I don't think this would apply to urging people to donate to, e.g. victims of a cyclone or an earthquake, because it is neither for oneself, nor for the Sangha. Still, putting conditions on such donations, saying, “If you donate $100 to the relief fund I will give a talk would still be unsuitable for a monk.”

This is not going to cause the demise of the Buddhasāsana, but its worth reminding people that donations and teachings must both be given with no strings attached.
Last edited by Bhikkhu Pesala on Sun May 12, 2013 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mindstar
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Mindstar »

I remember Ajahn Brahm saying:
To baldly go where no man has ever gone before
I think it fits :lol:

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Higher than sojourning in heavens supreme,
Higher than empire over all the worlds,
Is Fruit of Entrance to the Dhamma Stream.
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DNS
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by DNS »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: The 10 points discussed at the First Council included accepting money "for the Sangha," not for one's personal needs.

Whether, its for one's own needs, or for the Sangha's needs, asking for monetary donations is not allowable. If an invitation is made, one can say what the Sangha needs.
Hi Bhante,

Wasn't that the Second Council? And wasn't that when the monks were specifically going out on alms requesting money? At least somewhat different, if not completely different from what Ajahn Brahm is doing.

Also notable at the Second Council was the rejection of "Following a certain practice (which violates Vinaya) because it was done by one's tutor or teacher."
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Yes, of course, my mistake, it was the Second Council.

The monks put out a donation bowl and asked the devotees to donate money for the Sangha's needs:
Tena kho pana samayena Vesālikā vajjiputtakā bhikkhū tadahuposathe kaṃsapātiṃ udakena pūretvā majjhe bhikkhusaṅghassa ṭhapetvā āgatāgate Vesālike upāsake evaṃ vadanti — “dethāvuso, saṅghassa kahāpaṇampi aḍḍhampi pādampi māsakarūpampi. Bhavissati saṅghassa parikkhārena karaṇīya”nti.
I don't have time to look up a translation at the moment.
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Alex123
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Alex123 »

How will Theravāda survive with such strict rules regarding money, etc? This is not 5th Century BC India. What worked then and there might not work today.

Didn't the Buddha allow to remove minor rules? So what is the problem? These are not Pārājika or Saṅghādisesa offenses.
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Alex123 wrote:How will Theravāda survive with such strict rules regarding money, etc?
Generally speaking, bhikkhus receive more food than they could possibly eat. Materially they are substantially better off than they were in the past as well.

Bhikkhunis have a tougher time of things because the locations where the laity contribute more to the Sangha don't necessarily co-incide with the locations where bhikkhunis are situated or respected.

That said, what do they, or any monastics really need? They did not enter the Sangha to enter into a life of luxury. If they have the requisites they should feel blessed.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Alex123 »

retrofuturist wrote:that said, what do they, or any monastics really need? They did not enter the Sangha to enter into a life of luxury. If they have the requisites they should feel blessed.
One needs to pay for the land as it is private property. One needs to pay for the building. In colder climates one needs to pay for gas/electricity to heat it. If a monk needs medical care, there is no king sympathetic to monks who can pay for physician that will do it for free to the monks. etc etc.
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by BlackBird »

What's the harm? It's for a good cause. A few people need to take a chill-sit instead of criticising Ajahn Brahm, their time would be better spent minding their own mind states. :juggling:
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Lazy_eye »

BlackBird wrote:What's the harm? It's for a good cause. A few people need to take a chill-sit instead of criticising Ajahn Brahm, their time would be better spent minding their own mind states. :juggling:
:goodpost:
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Cittasanto »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Alex123 wrote:How will Theravāda survive with such strict rules regarding money, etc?
Generally speaking, bhikkhus receive more food than they could possibly eat. Materially they are substantially better off than they were in the past as well.

Bhikkhunis have a tougher time of things because the locations where the laity contribute more to the Sangha don't necessarily co-incide with the locations where bhikkhunis are situated or respected.

That said, what do they, or any monastics really need? They did not enter the Sangha to enter into a life of luxury. If they have the requisites they should feel blessed.

Metta,
Retro. :)
:goodpost:
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by marc108 »

retrofuturist wrote: Bhikkhunis have a tougher time of things because the locations where the laity contribute more to the Sangha don't necessarily co-incide with the locations where bhikkhunis are situated or respected.
do you really believe Bhikkhunis have a tougher time because of their location?
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
marc108 wrote:do you really believe Bhikkhunis have a tougher time because of their location?
You've oversimplified what I actually said, but the primary example that comes to mind is Thailand.

In Thailand, bhikkhunis are rarely recognised, but there are massive donations made to bhikkhus.

By contrast, in Australia the bhikkhuni movement is more likely to be recognised / acknowledged / accepted, but the dana culture isn't as strong here.
blackbird wrote:A few people need to take a chill-sit instead of criticising Ajahn Brahm
Once again there's this unjustified assumption that those who disagree are experiencing unwholesome mental states...

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by DNS »

I agree with retro that 'unwholesome mind states' do not come into play; regardless of which side you are on.

I think this issue comes down to 3 major positions:

1. That what AB is doing is a violation of the Vinaya, that it involves 'trade'. And that the end does not justify the means.
2. That the goal is so noble, that this is not a violation of Vinaya and that AB does not profit from this.

I think both positions make good points. While the goal is certainly noble, it is never the case that the end always justifies the means. To use an extreme example, if monks started stock brokering at their computers to raise funds for the Sangha, there would obviously be complaints from the community about the Vinaya violations (even though the funds obtained would all go to the Sangha and not the individual monks).

And then there is a third position, which I am leaning toward:

3. AB is offering his time for teaching, not anything else and he doesn't directly benefit. Although, there could be the argument that AB indirectly benefits as the 'spiritual head' over the bhikkhuni monastery to be built. The goal is noble and it is to benefit the bhikkhunis who are in need of housing. The effort pushes to a possible gray area, but the monastics are allowed to hint at the need for a dwelling and the funds obtained are just for that: housing; not any luxurious living arrangements.
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Mr Man
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Mr Man »

Came across this yesterday: Cittaviveka Finances 2012/13 http://www.cittaviveka.org/files/Cittav ... 012-13.pdf
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by BlackBird »

Well yes and no Retro. We're always filling in the blanks with our assumptions. Sometimes assumptions are not justified, and sometimes it's a fair cop of a guess.
Having observed the thread, I happen to be of the opinion that it's a fair cop of a guess (your posts excluded). Maybe I'm wrong, but even so it's not bad advice - A simple reminder for those who seek fault in the actions of others to pay attention to their own mindstates, as it is often possible when we find fault in others that our mind states aren't wholesome.

How often can you honestly say you go fault finding with a mind filled with compassion? In my case the answer is not often. Before you ask, In finding fault with fault finding - I have been careful of my own, as I'd hate to wind up a hypocrite ;)

But before this becomes overly meta in nature, I ought to reiterate it's merely a suggestion, nobody need listen to me or follow my advice.
metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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