mikenz66 wrote:Hi SarathW,
I presume Bhikkhu Pesala is talking about someone who is at least a stream enterer, who has "glimpsed" nibbana.
See this thread:
SN 12.68: Kosambi Sutta
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=12266" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"My friend, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose fermentations are ended. [2] It's as if there were a well along a road in a desert, with neither rope nor water bucket. A man would come along overcome by heat, oppressed by the heat, exhausted, dehydrated, & thirsty. He would look into the well and would have knowledge of 'water,' but he would not dwell touching it with his body. [3] In the same way, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose fermentations are ended."
Mike
I was wondering if the said vision was directly consciousness of a dhamma or perhaps just something indirect, like an inference drawn from another experience. The underlined words are
yathābhūta in the Pali. Ven Analayo (
http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... abhuta.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) points to another sutta where
nibbāna and
yathābhūta are juxtaposed -
Suppose, monk, that there were a royal frontier fortress with strong walls & ramparts and six gates. In it would be a wise, experienced, intelligent gatekeeper to keep out those he didn't know and to let in those he did. A swift pair of messengers, coming from the east, would say to the gatekeeper, 'Where, my good man, is the commander of this fortress?' He would say, 'There he is, sirs, sitting in the central square.' The swift pair of messengers, delivering their accurate report to the commander of the fortress, would then go back by the route by which they had come. Then a swift pair of messengers, coming from the west... the north... the south, would say to the gatekeeper, 'Where, my good man, is the commander of this fortress?' He would say, 'There he is, sirs, sitting in the central square.' The swift pair of messengers, delivering their accurate report to the commander of the fortress, would then go back by the route by which they had come.
I have given you this simile, monk, to convey a message. The message is this: The fortress stands for this body — composed of four elements, born of mother & father, nourished with rice & barley gruel, subject to constant rubbing & abrasion, to breaking & falling apart. The six gates stand for the six internal sense media. The gatekeeper stands for mindfulness. The swift pair of messengers stands for tranquillity (samatha) and insight (vipassana). The commander of the fortress stands for consciousness. The central square stands for the four great elements: the earth-property, the liquid-property, the fire-property, & the wind-property. The accurate report stands for Unbinding (nibbana). The route by which they had come stands for the noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
‘Seyyathāpi, bhikkhu, rañño paccantimaṃ nagaraṃ daḷhuddhāpaṃ [daḷhuddāpaṃ (sī. pī.)] daḷhapākāratoraṇaṃ chadvāraṃ. Tatrassa dovāriko paṇḍito byatto medhāvī, aññātānaṃ nivāretā, ñātānaṃ pavesetā. Puratthimāya disāya āgantvā sīghaṃ dūtayugaṃ taṃ dovārikaṃ evaṃ vadeyya – ‘kahaṃ, bho purisa, imassa nagarassa nagarassāmī’ti? So evaṃ vadeyya – ‘eso, bhante, majjhe siṅghāṭake nisinno’ti. Atha kho taṃ sīghaṃ dūtayugaṃ nagarassāmikassa yathābhūtaṃ vacanaṃ niyyātetvā yathāgatamaggaṃ paṭipajjeyya. Pacchimāya disāya āgantvā sīghaṃ dūtayugaṃ…pe… uttarāya disāya… dakkhiṇāya disāya āgantvā sīghaṃ dūtayugaṃ taṃ dovārikaṃ evaṃ vadeyya – ‘kahaṃ, bho purisa, imassa nagarassāmī’ti? So evaṃ vadeyya – ‘eso, bhante, majjhe siṅghāṭake nisinno’ti. Atha kho taṃ sīghaṃ dūtayugaṃ nagarassāmikassa yathābhūtaṃ vacanaṃ niyyātetvā yathāgatamaggaṃ paṭipajjeyya.
Upamā kho myāyaṃ, bhikkhu, katā atthassa viññāpanāya. Ayañcettha attho – ‘nagara’nti kho, bhikkhu, imassetaṃ cātumahābhūtikassa kāyassa adhivacanaṃ mātāpettikasambhavassa odanakummāsūpacayassa aniccucchādanaparimaddanabhedanaviddhaṃsanadhammassa. ‘Cha dvārā’ti kho, bhikkhu, channetaṃ ajjhattikānaṃ āyatanānaṃ adhivacanaṃ. ‘Dovāriko’ti kho, bhikkhu, satiyā etaṃ adhivacanaṃ. ‘Sīghaṃ dūtayuga’nti kho, bhikkhu, samathavipassanānetaṃ adhivacanaṃ. ‘Nagarassāmī’ti kho, bhikkhu, viññāṇassetaṃ adhivacanaṃ. ‘Majjhe siṅghāṭako’ti kho , bhikkhu, catunnetaṃ mahābhūtānaṃ adhivacanaṃ – pathavīdhātuyā, āpodhātuyā, tejodhātuyā, vāyodhātuyā. ‘Yathābhūtaṃ vacana’nti kho, bhikkhu, nibbānassetaṃ adhivacanaṃ. ‘Yathāgatamaggo’ti kho, bhikkhu, ariyassetaṃ aṭṭhaṅgikassa maggassa adhivacanaṃ, seyyathidaṃ – sammādiṭṭhiyā…pe… sammāsamādhissā’’ti. Aṭṭhamaṃ.
SN 35.204
Perhaps the translation of
yathābhūta as "as it actually is present" might be more of a stretch than the more grammatical "as it has come to be". Such a slight difference might possibly yield a different interpretation of whether said glimpse of
nibbāna is a direct glimpse, or an indirect one.
Edit - some posts in danieLion's "Originalist" thread led me to some further thoughts on this glimpse of
nibbāna. See -
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p234002" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Those who have not known, seen, penetrated, realized, or attained it by means of discernment would have to take it on conviction in others that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation (pariyosāna); whereas those who have known, seen, penetrated, realized, & attained it by means of discernment (paññāya) would have no doubt or uncertainty that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation.
SN 48.44
This reminds me of another sutta which also touches onn the 5 Faculties, SN 48.53 which says -
"Furthermore, the monk who is a learner discerns the five faculties: the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment. He sees clear through with discernment (paññāya) their destiny, excellence, rewards, & consummation (pariyosāna), but he does not touch them with his body. This too is a manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is a learner, standing at the level of a learner, can discern that 'I am a learner.'
I take it that
amata ("deathless") is synonymous with
nibbāna in SN 48.44. It appears that SN 48.44 is contrasting the trainee against the non-ariyan disciple. The former "knows through discernment/wisdom (
paññāya)" the goal and consummation of the 5 Faculties being
nibbāna, but according to SN 48.53, the trainee "does not dwell touching them with his body" (
na heva kho kāyena phusitvā viharati), ie the trainee has not experienced it personally. The personal experience is reserved only for the arahant -
And what is the manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is an adept, standing at the level of an adept, can discern that 'I am an adept'? There is the case where a monk who is an adept discerns (sees) the five faculties: the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment. He touches with his body and sees clear through with discernment what their destiny, excellence, rewards, & consummation are. This is a manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is an adept, standing at the level of an adept, can discern that 'I am an adept.'
It appears that even non-Ariyans can get some sort of "glimpse" of
nibbāna, although the trainee's glimpse would be even stronger, while the arahant's familiarity with
nibbāna is fully experiential.