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Ghosts, devas, and brahmās?

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:51 pm
by past is dead
Hello all

How many of you guys believe in ghosts, devas, and brahmas?

Do you think it's a must to believe in these supernatural deities in order to be a practitioner of Buddhism?

Can it hinders the progress in meditation?

Re: Ghosts, devas, and brahmās?

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:08 am
by SamKR
past is dead wrote:
How many of you guys believe in ghosts, devas, and brahmas?
I do.
Do you think it's a must to believe in these supernatural deities in order to be a practitioner of Buddhism?
No.
Can it hinders the progress in meditation?
No.

Re: Ghosts, devas, and brahmās?

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:59 am
by LonesomeYogurt
I think many of the attitudes that lead people to immediately disregard these things can also lead to serious problems in meditation, but a wise and healthy agnosticism should pose no problems.

Re: Ghosts, devas, and brahmās?

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:19 am
by Coyote
I don't think it is belief in these "beings" that is the main point of the teaching - that we can remain agnostic about. Rather it is an understanding of the moral cause-and-effect between past, present and future states, which would include rewarding or "heavenly" states, and deprived or "hellish" states, that is vital and would be a hindrance if rejected.

"And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view..."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That said, I do believe, because I don't really see any difference between aforementioned states and the beings inhabiting them.

Re: Ghosts, devas, and brahmās?

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:17 pm
by Bonsai Doug
I recall reading that in the suttas are references to thirty-one planes/realms of existence into which beings can be reborn. I wonder if these ghosts might be those in the Hungry Shades/Ghosts realm (peta loka)? I seem to recall that this realm is in close connection to the manussa loka, where we are now living.

Just a thought.....

Re: Ghosts, devas, and brahmās?

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:33 am
by drifting cloud
past is dead wrote:How many of you guys believe in ghosts, devas, and brahmas?
I do.
past is dead wrote:Do you think it's a must to believe in these supernatural deities in order to be a practitioner of Buddhism?
No, although you might want to examine your use of "supernatural" and "deity" here.

For one thing, I don't necessarily think these beings are "supernatural" in the sense of standing outside the order of nature - they are subject to the same natural laws of sickness, aging and death that all sentient beings are. Buddhism conceives of the order of nature as being quite broad, but even devas and brahmas exist within, rather than outside of, the natural order. This is a subtle point, but it's important because there is a big distinction between how the beings of the 31 planes are understood in Buddhism vs. the way that the Judeo-Christian God is understood.

Secondly these beings are not worshiped by the Buddhist practitioner, so I'm not sure if "deity" is the right word here. The most I've seen are some parittas (protective Suttas) that call on the power of certain beings like nagas and devas for protection, and rituals that involve expelling troublesome ghosts, but these are peripheral the main practice of Buddhism (getting free of suffering).
past is dead wrote:Can it hinders the progress in meditation?
As others have mentioned, it depends entirely on your attitude. There is no need to accept something on blind faith, but I would not write something off just because it lies outside the realm of your experience.

Re: Ghosts, devas, and brahmās?

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:23 pm
by whynotme
past is dead wrote:Hello all

How many of you guys believe in ghosts, devas, and brahmas?

Do you think it's a must to believe in these supernatural deities in order to be a practitioner of Buddhism?

Can it hinders the progress in meditation?
You should read kalama sutta, one of very best suttas out there.

Re: Ghosts, devas, and brahmās?

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:33 pm
by past is dead
whynotme wrote:
past is dead wrote:Hello all

How many of you guys believe in ghosts, devas, and brahmas?

Do you think it's a must to believe in these supernatural deities in order to be a practitioner of Buddhism?

Can it hinders the progress in meditation?
You should read kalama sutta, one of very best suttas out there.
I don't believe, but that does not mean that they don't exist. Maybe my belief will change as my understanding deepens with time and practice :)

Re: Ghosts, devas, and brahmās?

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:05 pm
by SarathW
I believe that there is some form of fine material existence.
I have seem smoke like thing past me three times. I have spoken to three people who have seen them.
My problem is why I can’t see them all the time.

Re: Ghosts, devas, and brahmās?

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:45 pm
by mogg
Yes I believe in devas and Brahmas. I have had no personal experience with either (that I am aware of) but know some people who have.

I know ghosts are real after having a ghost experience in Ireland a few years back at my sister's wedding. After many decades of disbelieving ghosts and ridiculing those that did (my pre-Buddhist days), it only took one encounter to undergo a complete paradigm shift. Now I'm open to anything.

I don't think belief in any of these is necessary at the beginning of the spiritual journey, but in time they will become part of one's worldview.

Re: Ghosts, devas, and brahmās?

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:14 pm
by Lazy_eye
past is dead wrote:Hello all

How many of you guys believe in ghosts, devas, and brahmas?

Do you think it's a must to believe in these supernatural deities in order to be a practitioner of Buddhism?

Can it hinders the progress in meditation?
I don't necessarily dismiss the possibility, but it's best to maintain a skeptical attitude with regard to ghost stories. Most of them on investigation turn out to be bunk. I've noticed that the people who share these stories tend to be the same people who clutter my e-mail inbox with various internet hoaxes (which they have fallen for) and urban legends. In brief, they are too credulous.

Skeptical doubt is a hindrance in meditation, but in normal daily life it can be very helpful. There's an entire industry which profits from people who lack this facility.

Re: Ghosts, devas, and brahmās?

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:29 pm
by Alex123
past is dead wrote:How many of you guys believe in ghosts, devas, and brahmas? ?
I don't believe in them if their image is taken literally. But if given the proper evidence, I would.

Maybe a possible way to reconcile that with current science is that those are viruses and bacteria?

As for seeing ghosts, etc: How do we know that it is not hallucination? Hallucination can appear very real, and I don't doubt the honesty and sincerity of those who say that they have seen them.

Personally, if I would see a ghost - first I would make sure that I am not dreaming, second I would investigate what was in my tea/coffee...

Re: Ghosts, devas, and brahmās?

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:30 pm
by Prasadachitta
past is dead wrote:Hello all

How many of you guys believe in ghosts, devas, and brahmas?

Do you think it's a must to believe in these supernatural deities in order to be a practitioner of Buddhism?

Can it hinders the progress in meditation?
Hello Past is Dead,

It depends on what you mean by "believe". I believe that experience is interpreted in many ways. I believe that the way an individual perceives and interprets their experience is real on that level. For now I will call this the level of phenomena. Some phenomena are more subtle than others. For example many people might agree that a certain location (say a hill) produces an uplifting or inspiring feeling. They might describe this experience of the hill as like being influenced by a personality. People who come to the hill might have the sense that this personality has a responsive quality with relation to their inner dialogue so that they are able to see the way they tend to think from a new perspective. All of this is actual as far as I'm concerned. Much of it is likely going to be supported by the suggestion of others but isn't much of our experience of actual people highly influenced by what we have already heard about them from others?

I Believe Gods, Devas, and the like all exist on the level of phenomena. I have experienced them myself even though I have no desire to project them into a more substantial form. The level on which they actually exist in experience has its own practical value within that limited sphere. For the purposes of meditation I think this is a valuable position to take. If I were to spend energy on asserting the non existence of these phenomena I would cut myself off from the practical value they can have. I think a person who wastes energy on asserting the existence of these phenomena is better off since they can at least make use of their subtle value, but of course this will come with its own set of problems.


Take Care

Prasadachitta

Re: Ghosts, devas, and brahmās?

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:56 pm
by mogg
Lazy_eye wrote:
past is dead wrote:Hello all

How many of you guys believe in ghosts, devas, and brahmas?

Do you think it's a must to believe in these supernatural deities in order to be a practitioner of Buddhism?

Can it hinders the progress in meditation?
I don't necessarily dismiss the possibility, but it's best to maintain a skeptical attitude with regard to ghost stories. Most of them on investigation turn out to be bunk. I've noticed that the people who share these stories tend to be the same people who clutter my e-mail inbox with various internet hoaxes (which they have fallen for) and urban legends. In brief, they are too credulous.

Skeptical doubt is a hindrance in meditation, but in normal daily life it can be very helpful. There's an entire industry which profits from people who lack this facility.
Agreed that a healthy dose of skepticism is wise when dealing with these issues, but you do realise that you've painted the Buddha and all the great Arahants with that broad brush stroke.

Re: Ghosts, devas, and brahmās?

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:47 pm
by Lazy_eye
mogg wrote: Agreed that a healthy dose of skepticism is wise when dealing with these issues, but you do realise that you've painted the Buddha and all the great Arahants with that broad brush stroke.
Have I? I didn't realize that, and it wasn't my intention to do so.

The suttas mention ghosts, devas and brahmas. As far as I know, all these beings may exist. My experience, though, is that most examples of ghost sightings do not hold up under investigation, and that the people sharing these stories have not investigated them thoroughly.

I have seen this numerous times, including on Buddhist discussion boards. Someone in great excitement posts a thread about this or that paranormal phenomenon. My interest aroused, I search around on Google and find that the claim has been debunked -- and that the person could have found this out easily with just a little critical inquiry.

That's all I meant! :)