Who can be the teacher of effacement?

[starter]

Dear friends,

I've just read MN 8 again and would like to share with you some new understanding about effacement and our teacher for effacement.

MN 8. Sallekha sutta [http://www.palicanon.org/en/sutta-pitaka/transcribed-suttas/majjhima-nikaya/129-mn-8-sallekha-sutta-effacement.html]

1) Know what to efface (efface all the unwholesome states/qualities), and what to cultivate (all the wholesome states/qualities)
2) Incline the mind towards the wholesome
3) Practice the effacement by (with non-cruelty as foundation):
a. Abstaining from the ten unwholesome deeds (wash away the “gross sand”)
b. Cultivating the ten wholesome factors of the path (wash away the “fine sand”)
i. Effacing the five hindrances
ii. Effacing the various defilements
4) The way to lead upwards (by the wholesome): cultivate the wholesome
5) The way of extinguishing (defilements):
"Cunda, that one who is himself sinking in the mud should pull out another who is sinking in the mud is impossible; that one who is not himself sinking in the mud should pull out another
who is sinking in the mud is possible. That one who is himself untamed, undisciplined, [with defilements] unextinguished, should tame another, discipline him, and help extinguish [his
defilements] is impossible; that one who is himself tamed, disciplined, [with defilements] extinguished, should tame another, discipline him, and help extinguish [his defilements] is
possible. So too: (1) A person given to cruelty has non-cruelty by which to extinguish it. …

To my understanding, the Buddha taught us here to use the wholesome (Dhamma) to extinguish the unwholesome, instead of relying on unliberated teachers. Only arahants, not any unliberated ones such as stream winners, can truly teach others to efface defilements. While helping others, an unliberated one should always point his students to the Dhamma as their ultimate teacher (instead of himself) and let them realize that what he taught might be wrong. We as students should always remember to rely on the Dhamma as our ultimate teacher and refuge, since we can’t judge if someone is fully enlightened or not.

The same principle was taught in AN 3.65 Kalama Sutta:

So, as I said, Kalamas: 'Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, "This contemplative is our teacher." When you know for yourselves that, "These teachings are unwholesome; these teachings are blameworthy; these teachings criticized by the wise; these teachings, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering" — then you should abandon them.' ...

Now, Kalamas, ... When you know for yourselves that, 'These teachings are wholesome; these teachings are blameless; these teachings are praised by the wise; these teachings, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should adopt & carry them out. [Of course the highest teachings that can lead to the supreme happiness, nibbana, is the Buddha's teaching, the Dhamma.]

Happy Chinese New Year to all Chinese friends!

Metta to all,

Starter

[Modus.Ponens]

Hello starter

Good topic, thanks. I would just like to say my opinion regarding apropriate teachers. I think it's possible for a stream winner to help another person ataing stream entry. But it's possible that that's as far as s/he can help. And similarly to the other levels of atainment. Maybe this is a construction of mine or maybe it's based on reality.

However, I would like to point out that reading the teachings of the suttas as categorical statements is not helpful. Even though the Buddha (almost) never lied, the statements he does are both context dpendent and aproximations to the truth, not necessarily the exact and rigorous truth. An example is him saying that there are 1000 other worlds (if we can atribute this to him; that's another story). Why 1000? Is that the exact number or an aproximation? If we admit that the Buddha sometimes made aproximations to the truth when he spoke, instead of telling a detailed exposition on a subject which would be more true, but harder to understand, then we can't read the suttas as a set of categorical final statements about the dhamma. It's not as static as that. It's more fluid.

An example of an aproximation is the Buddha's teaching in short, which I'm sure you know: "Do good, avoid evil, purify your mind, that's the teaching of the Buddhas". While this is true, it's very hard to make something concrete about the dhamma from this statement.

So in conclusion, it's hard to mantain that only arahats can help other beings to completely erase their defilements. There's truth to that, of course, but for example, I can imagine that a non returner could help another person ataining arahatship by a teaching a mixture of his own experience and the dhamma that he knows from the scriptures, which would be doing what you said an unenlightened teacher should do.

Metta

[polarbuddha101]

Troubling question: Would we even have teachers right now if we followed the standard presented here, i.e. one should only learn from arahants or if not that, then just learn from the suttas?

[starter]

Hello Modus and polarbuddha101,

Thanks for your comments. I'd like to clarify that I didn't intend to say we shouldn't have teachers, but should have the true Buddha's teaching (the Dhamma) as our ultimate teacher and refuge. I'd check if a teacher's teaching conforms to the Dhamma or not, instead of blindly following him. Although a real stream winner could help others to attain stream entry, I wouldn't be confident that a teacher is indeed a stream winner if I myself hadn't attained the stream entry and hence couldn't judge. Although I was told that there're some stream winners or even arahants (I'm pretty sure that the ones who told me this were not yet streamwinners), I haven't had the fortune to encounter one whom I'm confident as such; a real streamwinner should truly understand, practice, and teach the 4NT and the Buddha's path, not his or his own teacher's teaching and path. It's far better to rely on the Dhamma.

Have the Dhamma as our teacher and refuge doesn't mean that we don't want any teachers and just read the suttas. I consider the Dhamma as the principle, which doesn't change according to contexts or statements. "Do good, avoid evil, purify your mind, that's the teaching of the Buddhas" is a very good summary of the Dhamma: "Cultivate the wholesome, abandon the unwholesome, purify the mind of defilements". All the teachings of the Buddha is teaching this principle.

Success with the Dhamma practice!

Starter