That space is not,but Nibbana is, What this means?

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That space is not,but Nibbana is, What this means?

Postby SarathW » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:08 am

I am reading this book:

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/buddh ... gsurw6.pdf


Page 389
If Nibbāna is nothingness, then it necessarily must coincide
with space (Ākāsa). Both space and Nibbāna are eternal
and unchanging. The former is eternal because it is nothing
in itself. The latter is spaceless and timeless. With regard to
the difference between space and Nibbāna, it may briefly be
said that space is not, but Nibbāna is.

Page 390
The Nibbāna of Buddhists is, therefore, neither a state of nothingness
nor a mere cessation. What it is not, one can definitely
say. What precisely it is, one cannot adequately express in conventional
terms as it is unique. It is for self-realization (paccattam
veditabbo).

Can you explain this in some other way? Does it mean that there is something called Nibbana?
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Re: That space is not,but Nibbana is, What this means?

Postby pegembara » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:46 am

Space is Nothing. But nibbana or emptiness is not nothingness but the realisation that time, space and objects are no-things ie. anatta. This is the point between existence and non-existence. Things neither exist nor don't exist but are empty or insubstantial. Their nature is to arise and pass away ie. anicca.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: That space is not,but Nibbana is, What this means?

Postby ground » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:35 am

A common misconception is to equate the term "nothing" with "nothingness". The reason for this is the working of consciousness which is determination of what is indeterminate as this or that.
"nothing" means just that there is not anything, the absence of all that might be something. So both nibbana and space can be said to be nothing, since there is absense of everything, But this absence of everything is not replaced by nothingness, since there is just nothing, not even nothingness.
Space may be said to be nothing in that there is no presence of tangible objects at all.
Nibbana may be said to be nothing in that there is not the slightest perception of anything as this or that, in that arising of consciousnesses has ceased.

From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. ... Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

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Re: That space is not,but Nibbana is, What this means?

Postby SarathW » Fri May 16, 2014 3:21 am

He destroyed my Papanka! :tantrum:

All this time I thought Nibbana is!

===========
On an earlier occasion, too, we had to mention the fact that there
is quite a lot of confusion in this concern.33 Sakhata, the compounded,
is supposed to be a thing. And asakhata, or the uncompounded,
is also a thing. The compounded is an impermanent thing,
while the uncompounded is a permanent thing. The compounded is
fraught with suffering, and the uncompounded is blissful. The compounded
is not self, but the uncompounded is ... At this point the line
of argument breaks off.
...............
Let alone other concepts, not even Nibbana as a concept is to be
grasped. To grasp the concept of Nibbana is to slip into an error. So
from the couplet quoted above we clearly understand how subtle this
maññana is and why it is called an extremely subtle bondage of
Mara.

Page 290

http://www.seeingthroughthenet.net/file ... ed_III.pdf
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Re: That space is not,but Nibbana is, What this means?

Postby pegembara » Fri May 16, 2014 4:24 am

Why is Nibbāna regarded as unfalsifying? Because there is no
‘thing’ in it. It is so long as there is a thing that all the distress and
misery follow. Nibbāna is called animitta, or the signless, precisely
because there is no-thing in it.



These words of the Buddha enjoining us to see the world as being empty show that it is the highest thing. Anyone who wants to be without problems concerning Dukkha and death, should look on the world, i.e. on all things, as they truly are, namely as empty, neither "I" nor "mine". The statements of the Buddha that follow on from this show the benefits: 'Nibbana paranam sunnam' and 'Nibbanam paramam sukham', which translate as 'Nibbana is the supreme emptiness' and 'Nibbana is the supreme happiness'. You must understand that Nibbana, the remainderless extinction of Dukkha, means the same as supreme emptiness, and that it is possible to know and realize an emptiness that is not supreme, an emptiness that is in some way deficient or false. The truth-discerning awareness must be so impeccably clear that one has not the slightest feeling of "self" or "belonging to a self" for it to be called paramam sunnam, supreme emptiness. Supreme emptiness is Nibbana because it completely extinguishes the things that are on fire, the stream or whirlpool of flowing and changing phenomena. Thus the supreme emptiness and the supreme extinction are one and the same thing."


http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha196.htm
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: That space is not,but Nibbana is, What this means?

Postby Mkoll » Fri May 16, 2014 4:31 am

pegembara wrote:Why is Nibbāna regarded as unfalsifying? Because there is no
‘thing’ in it. It is so long as there is a thing that all the distress and
misery follow. Nibbāna is called animitta, or the signless, precisely
because there is no-thing in it.


pegembara,

What is the source of this quote?

:anjali:
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Re: That space is not,but Nibbana is, What this means?

Postby pegembara » Fri May 16, 2014 7:31 am

From Sarath's post above - Nibbana Sermons. P290
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: That space is not,but Nibbana is, What this means?

Postby Mkoll » Fri May 16, 2014 2:19 pm

:oops:
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Re: That space is not,but Nibbana is, What this means?

Postby Ananda26 » Sat May 17, 2014 2:17 pm

With a meditator who meditates on the base space, it is possible that on the dissolution of the body he will be reborn in the base of space and remain there for a very long time, but being still subject to rebirth, after that time, he would be born again.

When a monk has attained Nibbana, he is no longer subject to rebirth.

SarathW wrote:
Can you explain this in some other way? Does it mean that there is something called Nibbana?


Here is a quote from the Great Discourse on Causation: LD#15

Seven Stations of Consciousness
"Ananda, there are these seven stations of consciousness and two spheres. Which seven?

"There are beings with diversity of body and diversity of perception, such as human beings, some devas, and some beings in the lower realms. This is the first station of consciousness.

"There are beings with diversity of body and singularity of perception, such as the devas of the Brahma hosts generated by the first [jhana] and some beings in the four realms of deprivation. This is the second station of consciousness. [2]

"There are beings with singularity of body and diversity of perception, such as the Radiant Devas. This is the third station of consciousness.

"There are beings with singularity of body and singularity of perception, such as the Beautifully Lustrous Devas. This is the fourth station of consciousness.

"There are beings who,with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' arrive at the dimension of the infinitude of space. This is the fifth station of consciousness.

"There are beings who, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' arrive at the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. This is the sixth station of consciousness.

"There are beings who, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' arrive at the dimension of nothingness. This is the seventh station of consciousness.

"The dimension of non-percipient beings and, second, the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. [These are the two spheres.]

"Now, as for the first station of consciousness — beings with diversity of body and diversity of perception, such as human beings, some devas, and some beings in the lower realms: If one discerns that [station of consciousness], discerns its origination, discerns its passing away, discerns its allure, discerns its drawbacks, discerns the escape from it, would it be proper, by means of that [discernment] to take delight there?"

"No, lord."

(Similarly with each of the remaining stations of consciousness and two spheres.)

"Ananda, when knowing — as they actually are — the origination, passing away, allure, drawbacks of — and escape from — these seven stations of consciousness and two spheres, a monk is released through lack of clinging, he is said to be a monk released through discernment.


The base of space is very long lasting, but not eternal. After a time beings pass away from there and are reborn according to their kamma.

Hence the desire for a further escape called the Nibbana element.

After one has attained Nibbana, one will not be born again. With the cessation of birth, ageing and death cease.
Last edited by Ananda26 on Tue May 20, 2014 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: That space is not,but Nibbana is, What this means?

Postby Zom » Sun May 18, 2014 3:31 pm

Space is Nothing.


| woudn't be so sure 8-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_FcaZjWkl0
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Re: That space is not,but Nibbana is, What this means?

Postby Mkoll » Sun May 18, 2014 3:55 pm

Zom wrote:
Space is Nothing.


| woudn't be so sure 8-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_FcaZjWkl0

That looks good, I'll have to check it out.

I think the idea is that for a human being without scientific instruments, space is as close to nothing as you can get.
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Re: That space is not,but Nibbana is, What this means?

Postby SarathW » Wed May 28, 2014 1:09 am

I am in the roller coaster!
==========

"Nibbana is a truly existent state" (Sabhavadhamma)

P324
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/printguna.pdf

=========

So now that we have presented this synoptic verse, we propose to wind
up this series of sermons. As a matter of fact, the reason for many a
misconception about Nibbana is a lack of understanding the law of
dependent arising and the middle path. For the same reason, true to the
Buddha’s description of beings as taking delight in existence, bhavarama,
lusting for existence, bhavarata, and rejoicing in existence,
bhavasammudita,20 Nibbana came to be apprehensively misconstrued as
tantamount to annihilation. Therefore even commentators were scared of
the prospect of a cessation of existence and tried to explain away Nibbana
through definitions that serve to perpetuate craving for existence.

P713

http://www.seeingthroughthenet.net/file ... ed_VII.pdf
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