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The nature of Nibbana - Dhamma Wheel

The nature of Nibbana

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Disciple
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The nature of Nibbana

Postby Disciple » Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:54 am

In the state of deep sleep there is no desire, no attachment, nothing at all but oblivious bliss. Can this be likened to Nibbana?

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Jay1
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Re: The nature of Nibbana

Postby Jay1 » Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:13 am

Well, I always imagined that the absence of desire would be filled with peace and joy, things not present when asleep. So no. Btw, I'm new and could be way wrong.

:namaste:

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Dan74
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Re: The nature of Nibbana

Postby Dan74 » Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:18 am

_/|\_

Disciple
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Re: The nature of Nibbana

Postby Disciple » Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:50 am


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equilibrium
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Re: The nature of Nibbana

Postby equilibrium » Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:56 am


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Dan74
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Re: The nature of Nibbana

Postby Dan74 » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:17 am

_/|\_

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gavesako
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Re: The nature of Nibbana

Postby gavesako » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:32 am

Pabhassara Sutta: Luminous

"Luminous, monks, is the mind.[1] And it is defiled by incoming defilements." {I,v,9}

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." {I,v,10}

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — there is no development of the mind." {I,vi,1}

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of the mind." {I,vi,2}

Note

1.
This statement has engendered a great deal of controversy over the centuries. The commentary maintains that "mind" here refers to the bhavanga-citta, the momentary mental state between periods when the mental stream adverts to objects, but this statement raises more questions than it answers. There is no reference to the bhavanga-citta or the mental stream in any of the suttas (they appear first in an Abhidhamma treatise, the Patthana); and because the commentaries compare the bhavanga-citta to deep sleep, why is it called luminous? And why would the perception of its luminosity be a prerequisite for developing the mind? And further, if "mind" in this discourse means bhavanga-citta, what would it mean to develop the bhavanga-citta?

Another interpretation equates the luminosity of the mind with the "consciousness without feature," described as "luminous" in MN 49 and DN 11, but this interpretation also has problems. According to MN 49, that consciousness partakes of nothing in the describable world, not even the "Allness of the All," so how could it possibly be defiled? And, because it is not realized until the goal of the practice is reached, why would the perception of its luminosity be a prerequisite for developing the mind? And again, if "mind" here means consciousness without feature, how could the sutta talk of its development?

A more reasonable approach to understanding the statement can be derived from taking it in context: the luminous mind is the mind that the meditator is trying to develop. To perceive its luminosity means understanding that defilements such as greed, aversion, or delusion are not intrinsic to its nature, are not a necessary part of awareness. Without this understanding, it would be impossible to practice. With this understanding, however, one can make an effort to cut away existing defilements, leaving the mind in the stage that MN 24 calls "purity in terms of mind." This would correspond to the luminous level of concentration described in the standard simile for the fourth jhana: "And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness." From this state it is possible to develop the discernment that not only cuts away existing defilements but also uproots any potential for them to ever arise again. Only in the stages of Awakening that follow on those acts of discernment would "consciousness without feature" be realized.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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ground
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Re: The nature of Nibbana

Postby ground » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:36 am

Last edited by ground on Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ground
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Re: The nature of Nibbana

Postby ground » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:43 am


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waterchan
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Re: The nature of Nibbana

Postby waterchan » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:29 pm

quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)

SarathW
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Re: The nature of Nibbana

Postby SarathW » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:46 pm

Sadhu, Sadhu,Sadhu Bahante Gavesako!!
I was awaiting such a long time for someone to come up with this explanation!!
Hi Disciple,
I hope you understand what Bhante Gavesko’ s reply. When you are in a deep sleep or just as a newly born baby you will have a radiant consciousness. But it is defiled with past ignorance so it is not Nibbana. Both of the cases you cannot attain Nirvana because you do not have awareness to understand Nirvana.
However through meditation you can bring your mind to this level of radiant consciousness and then understand the Impermanence, unsatisfactoryness and Anatta and you will attain Nirvana.

Please also see the attached link:

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=15567
:meditate:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Coyote
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Re: The nature of Nibbana

Postby Coyote » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:56 pm

But the radiant consciousness is not Nibbana itself, am I understanding correctly? It is consciousness pure enough to be able to understand without ignorance, and therefore attain Nibbana, but the mind itself is not Nibbana, right?

:anjali:
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26

SarathW
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Re: The nature of Nibbana

Postby SarathW » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:59 pm

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

makarasilapin
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Re: The nature of Nibbana

Postby makarasilapin » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:52 am


pegembara
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Re: The nature of Nibbana

Postby pegembara » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:51 am

And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

Disciple
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Re: The nature of Nibbana

Postby Disciple » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:27 am

Understood, thanks.


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