tiltbillings wrote:And, of course, that can include the “wish/decision” to follow/to listen to/to take seriously Sujin’s teachings.
Yes, so (ideally) it's not about this or that action but awareness of the present mental state.
tiltbillings wrote:
Why would you think that following her teachings would be any more wholesome than following Ajahn Brahm or Mahasi Sayadaw?
Don't think it's about one teaching being more wholesome than another, but rather, some teachings appeal more or not, as per one's level of development, my being quite low, I find it easier to understand the way K.S. teaches precisely.
tiltbillings wrote:
Neither Ajahn Brahm nor Mahasi Sayadaw have taught the unwholesome notion that they have it correct and everyone else has it wrong, as it certainly appears that Sujin does,
Not sure, my impression of K.S. is that she criticises what she thinks is wrong practice - a meditator comes to her - she calls it what she thinks is right and wrong about what that person is asking. An abhidhammika comes to her - she does the same. Her own student comes to her - she does the same. Perhaps most people that come to her are meditators, so they seem to get the most criticism. In either case, I don't get from her that thing that everyone else is wrong. From some of the students, yes, but that's to be expected from some, and that's probably what you mean by
tiltbillings wrote:
as we have seen graphically illustrated in this thread.
Though, from my side of the fence, this thread seems a bit like I'm back on e-sangha constantly being told that what I'm doing is hinayana.
tiltbillings wrote:And also, this wholesome/unwholesome divide really misses an important point about practice, about where we start from. It does not show a mature understanding of meditation/sila/Eigthfold Path practice.
My impression was that the beginning of development is learning to know the difference between what's right and what's not (un/wholesome), both in terms of sila and bhavana. Could you say a bit more on where do you think we start from?
tiltbillings wrote:pt1 wrote: (b) It is recognised that intentional development (wholesome) of wisdom and other wholesome factors is possible, however, this is thought to happen at the stage when faculties are highly developed, when it’s basically natural to “sit at the roots of trees and meditate” directing one’s mind to samatha or vipassana, without the danger of it turning (largely) unwholesome.
There is no justification for this statement from the Buddha’s teachings, as the story
Nanda makes humorously clear. And as the Four Noble Truths makes quite clear, we can only start from where we are. In other words as we do the practice, as we cultivate our meditation/sila/the Eightfold Path we move from unwholesome to insight and wholesome qualities of mind.
I quite agree with the last two sentences, but you disagree with my original statement, so that probably means we understand differently how bhavana actually occurs. Maybe my previous post on effort and bhavana has explained some things, if not, we can discuss more.
tiltbillings wrote:pt1 wrote: (c) All of K.S. students I came into contact with consider their mindfulness, wisdom and other faculties to be quite underdeveloped. So, they are of the opinion that if they were to attempt intentional development, it would be largely unwholesome since underdeveloped faculties do not allow the distinction between wholesome and unwholesome states to be made, and thus, one’s likely to be developing largely unwholesome states, including wrong view, since unwholesome states predominate for someone with underdeveloped faculties.
And this comes directly from the teachings of Sujin, it would seem, and this is one of the saddest things I have ever seen expressed in the name of the Dhamma, and, again, it shows an immature understanding of the practice it criticizes.
I don't know, in technical terms I think she's right - conditions are what they are (natural decisive, predominance, etc) despite how I'd want it to be. But more importantly, it feels right experientially - any progress that happened in my practice seems to have occurred in spite of my meditation practice so to speak, i.e. thanks to hearing and considering.
tiltbillings wrote: (d) That thought to be the case, they give each other (and occasionally to others – by habit, or by assumption that we’re all pretty much the same) the advice appropriate to those with underdeveloped faculties. As in, if you can’t tell the difference between wholesome and unwholesome states, then you really have no idea what is it that you’re intentionally trying to develop at the moment, so better consider the teachings some more until that distinction between wholesome and unwholesome is more clear.
And you do not see the problem you are making for yourself here? And you do not see the rejection of the Buddha’s teachings implicit in your above position?
I guess not. Could you point out the problem as it seems to you? Also, in an earlier post, you said (if I remember right) that we can cultivate conditions for wisdom. I've been meaning to ask if you could also say a bit more about that? Thanks.
Best wishes