arahant, non-returner, in the world today or recent times?

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Re: arahant, non-returner, in the world today or recent times?

Postby alan... » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:04 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
alan... wrote:
LonesomeYogurt wrote:When followers would ask the Buddha, "Where can an arahant be found after death?" he would answer, "An arahant cannot be found before death!"


ugh, i hate saying this, but: sutta number please? i don't like to log stuff in my brain as "fact" until i have seen it in the pali canon or whatever text is being referenced. also i can't accept or reject what you're saying without knowing where it comes from.
See:


http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 871&#p1871


is there a quote and sutta number with this quote:

"When followers would ask the Buddha, Where can an arahant be found after death?" he would answer, "An arahant cannot be found before death!"


in the thread?
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Re: arahant, non-returner, in the world today or recent times?

Postby daverupa » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:27 pm

alan... wrote:is there a quote and sutta number with this quote:

"When followers would ask the Buddha, Where can an arahant be found after death?" he would answer, "An arahant cannot be found before death!"


in the thread?


SN 22.85 wrote:"And so, my friend Yamaka — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death'?"
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: arahant, non-returner, in the world today or recent times?

Postby alan... » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:39 pm

daverupa wrote:
alan... wrote:is there a quote and sutta number with this quote:

"When followers would ask the Buddha, Where can an arahant be found after death?" he would answer, "An arahant cannot be found before death!"


in the thread?


SN 22.85 wrote:"And so, my friend Yamaka — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death'?"


i was asking for a sutta reference as the statement is in quotes so i assumed it is a direct quote from a sutta. what you've posted here is a similar idea but it's not the same exact thing. the quote in question perfectly validates the other statement that an arahant cannot be found which was a statement that seemed to claim that the idea of looking for an arahant on earth is futile. this one about the tathagata is not the buddha telling someone that arahants cannot be found in this world. he is explaining how tathagata is defined in order to explain an idea of what happens to one after the break up of the body. If you can't pin down a tathagata with words then how could you define it in such and such a way after his death? that's a world apart from saying something like "An arahant cannot be found before death!"

it's about defining states, it's not claiming that arahants cannot be found, but that a tathagata cannot be defined in such and such a way. clearly whoever is talking to the buddha in the sutta has "found him" in the literal sense. this sense is the original meaning of my thread, finding an arahant in the world today. the earlier post was basically claiming that an arahant cannot be found and was then backed up by the "An arahant cannot be found before death!" statement. if you want to play semantics then sure, an arahant cannot be "found" if you define "finding" as "pinning down the IDEA of an arahant with words." however i'm defining "finding" as any normal person would as "locating them physically or knowing of their location in our physical reality. (or past location in our reality if they have passed away), or knowing that they existed in our physical reality." i'm not talking about "finding" them as some kind of metaphysical question about defining an arahant. i'm talking about locating a living (or recently living) human being who is likely an arahant.
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Re: arahant, non-returner, in the world today or recent times?

Postby daverupa » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:48 pm

Not trying to play semantics; when you come into contact with another set of aggregates which are not being appropriated, it's possible you might say "Here is an arahant" and shake their hand, maybe drop a little something into their bowl at the appropriate time, and so on.

But, ultimately, it takes one to know one. There's absolutely no way for a puthujjana to know of another "they are ariya". The first step in even just beginning to look for an arahant is becoming a stream-enterer.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: arahant, non-returner, in the world today or recent times?

Postby alan... » Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:00 pm

daverupa wrote:Not trying to play semantics; when you come into contact with another set of aggregates which are not being appropriated, it's possible you might say "Here is an arahant" and shake their hand, maybe drop a little something into their bowl at the appropriate time, and so on.

But, ultimately, it takes one to know one. There's absolutely no way for a puthujjana to know of another "they are ariya". The first step in even just beginning to look for an arahant is becoming a stream-enterer.


the OP is clearly just asking "if you had to guess" who is an arahant? that's all i want to know. i'm not looking for deep debates on defining "arahant" or anything else. just pure reckless speculation. i don't think my OP is ambiguous about this at all. not sure how we got to this point. oh wait, it's because that one guy said you can't find and arahant and then i replied and the ball started rolling. i should have just answered him with what i just wrote and then we wouldn't have gotten this far!
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Re: arahant, non-returner, in the world today or recent times?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:20 pm

Woah woah woah, I was totally misunderstood there! There's nothing wrong with looking for arahants, I was just trying to explain Sarathw's statement: "There is no place called Nirvana, there is no person to attain Nirvana and there is nothing to be attained. So I think, you can't find one!"

Sorry for the confusion.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: arahant, non-returner, in the world today or recent times?

Postby daverupa » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:17 pm

alan... wrote:just pure reckless speculation.


Ah. Sometimes I neglect to notice such things when the topic dovetails so closely to other, oft-confusing topics such as trying to pin down a tathagata.

:toilet:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: arahant, non-returner, in the world today or recent times?

Postby SarathW » Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:33 am

equilibrium wrote:
SarathW wrote:There is no place called Nirvana, there is no person to attain Nirvana and there is nothing to be attained.
So I think, you can't find one!
If there is no person to attain Nirvana.....then what is the point in buddhism?
There is nothing to be attained.....then why is one here?
If you can't find one.....then the teaching cannot be true!

The above statements are similar within the Heart Sutra.....reading and not understanding is not the same as one who reads and understands the true meaning.....they are two very different things!



Hi Equlibrium
Thanks. I see your point. It is wrong to say that there is a person or there is not a person, etc. The truth is in the middle just like the equilibrium! :)

In conventionally speaking there is an Arahant or Buddha but in absolute sense there is none. When we say Buddha or Arahant we are refering to the copreal body of the Arahant. In that sense that
there are Arahant you can find.
I think the best way to find an Arahant is to become one. Otherwise we will have misconception and will see normal persons (acadamics) as Arahants.

Say you are living in Australia and want to go to Paris. So you want to find someone who has been to Paris. The sure way to find out is you go there yourself. When you getting to the taxi you know that the taxi driver has never been there. In the air port you might find someone like you who want to go to paris. In Singpore you will find someone in transit to Paris. In London when you got in to Eurostar (Bullet train) you will find that they all want to go to Paris. Not only that you will find some people who have been to Paris many times!
So Dhamma wheel is like the Bullet train you certainly can find an Arahant here! :D
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Re: arahant, non-returner, in the world today or recent times?

Postby anjali » Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:33 am

perkele wrote:Arahants:
Ajahn Maha Bua. I am very sure he was an arahat. He said he was an arahat. Some people may take that as a reason to believe the opposite. When you read his books, especially Arahatta-Magga Arahatta-Phala, you can check for yourself if there's something that resonates with your intuition deep inside, or if you think he was just full of himself.
He had some disciples who, so I heard and believe, also became arahats, including the british-born Ajahn Paññavaddho...
I think the remaining western disciples of Ajahn Maha Bua must also have attained some level of realization.


After reading his works some years ago, I also have come to the same conclusion about his arahatship as you have. The question I have, is: who are his remaining disciples (western or not)?? I can't find anything on this at all.

I know that Ajahn Maha Bua didn't encourage his monks to go around expounding the dharma; instead, requiring them to focus on practice. Still, does anyone have a clue who his direct disciples are and what they are doing these days? I have heard there is a German monk who is currently heading Ajahn Maha Bua's monastery (is that correct?). But I would really like to know if there are any teaching monks in Ajahn Maha Bua's lineage now, perhaps with their on monasteries?
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Re: arahant, non-returner, in the world today or recent times?

Postby Nibbida » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:56 pm

Taungpulu Sayadaw was reputed to be an arahant. You can find info on him by Googling him.
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Re: arahant, non-returner, in the world today or recent times?

Postby perkele » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:24 am

anjali wrote:After reading his works some years ago, I also have come to the same conclusion about his arahatship as you have. The question I have, is: who are his remaining disciples (western or not)?? I can't find anything on this at all.


One of them, Ajahn Dick Silaratano, has founded a monastery in West Virginia.
Address here: http://www.forestdhamma.org/contact/
For some pictures see this post: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=14800&start=20#p216596
Looks promising indeed. Hope they're doing fine over there. Not much to read what's going on. They seem to like it quiet and undisturbed. :smile:

The German bhikkhu, Ajahn Martin, is not at Wat Pa Baan Taad anymore, I think. At least I heard he wanted to go to a more quiet place, now that his teacher is dead and Wat Pa Baan Taad is so famous. I have some name of a monastery in mind, which I don't know I remember correctly, nor where it is, nor if he actually went there. But since his idea was to have it rather quiet I won't put the name here. You can PM me, if you want to know this.
Those who are ashamed of what they should be ashamed of, and are not ashamed of what they should not be ashamed of -- upholding true views, they do not go to states of woe.
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