"the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

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"the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Postby Tom » Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:43 pm

    20. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the confusion and disappearance of the Good Teaching. What two? It is the displacement of words and letters that do not convey the meaning and the displaced words and letters not conveying the meaning to the necessary end. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the confusion and the disappearance of the Good Teaching.

    21 Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching. What two? It is the correct placement of words and letters that convey the meaning and the nondisplaced words and letters conveying the meaning to the necessary end. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the nonconfusion and the nondisappearance of the Good Teaching. AN2.2:20:21

Is this referring to the Suttas specifically, or anytime a teacher speaks on (the true) dhamma?
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Postby santa100 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:02 pm

An alternative translation from F.L.Woodward's "The Book of Gradual Sayings":

Monks, these two things conduce to the confusion and disappearance of true Dhamma. What two?
The wrong expression of the letter of the text and wrong interpretation of the meaning of it. For if the letter be wrongly expressed, the interpretation of the meaning is also wrong.
Monks, these two things conduce to the establishment, the non-confusion, to the non-disappearance of true Dhamma. What two?
The right expression of the letter and right interpretation of the meaning. For if the letter be rightly expressed, the interpretation of the meaning is also right. These two things conduce to the estalishment... of true Dhamma


So it may apply to any case of wrong rendering or wrong interpretation of the Buddha's teaching..
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:08 am

Greetings,

Woodward translation wrote:"For if the letter be wrongly expressed, the interpretation of the meaning is also wrong.

A nice reminder of the primacy of Right View in the Noble Eightfold Path.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Postby Tom » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:26 am

Is this referring to the "letter" used in communicating the Buddha's discourses or the "letter" used in any communication of Dhamma?
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Postby alan... » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:54 am

ccharles wrote:
    20. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the confusion and disappearance of the Good Teaching. What two? It is the displacement of words and letters that do not convey the meaning and the displaced words and letters not conveying the meaning to the necessary end. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the confusion and the disappearance of the Good Teaching.

    21 Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching. What two? It is the correct placement of words and letters that convey the meaning and the nondisplaced words and letters conveying the meaning to the necessary end. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the nonconfusion and the nondisappearance of the Good Teaching. AN2.2:20:21

Is this referring to the Suttas specifically, or anytime a teacher speaks on (the true) dhamma?


my guess is it's about oral transmission. passing on each sutta word for word EXACTLY as they are supposed to be.

today we have to worry less as they are already recorded. there are some small differences between editions of the pali canon but it's mostly the same. so it's already over with. anything confused is stuck that way. although bhikkhu bodhi is going so far as to compare the agamas and multiple editions of the pali canon to keep everything straight! what a guy! seriously amazing man. he made some really interesting finds when translating the anguttara nikaya according to it's introduction.
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:49 am

ccharles wrote:
    20. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the confusion and disappearance of the Good Teaching. What two? It is the displacement of words and letters that do not convey the meaning and the displaced words and letters not conveying the meaning to the necessary end. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the confusion and the disappearance of the Good Teaching.

    21 Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching. What two? It is the correct placement of words and letters that convey the meaning and the nondisplaced words and letters conveying the meaning to the necessary end. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the nonconfusion and the nondisappearance of the Good Teaching. AN2.2:20:21

Is this referring to the Suttas specifically, or anytime a teacher speaks on (the true) dhamma?

I would say it is some of each.
or more specifically, this could refer to those instances of a disciple saying something was taught by the Buddha when it wasn't. but to assume it is not inclusive of any utterance that is true Dhamma-vinaya would be mistaken.

There are other verses in AN2 which point out similar things like who misrepresents the Dhamma.... essentially looking at the same problem from a different angle.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Postby danieLion » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:10 am

alan... wrote:although bhikkhu bodhi is going so far as to compare the agamas and multiple editions of the pali canon to keep everything straight!
He's piggy-backing Reverend Analayo when it comes to the Agamas, and probably to a large extent with the multiple Pali "canon" editions.
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Postby danieLion » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:14 am

ccharles wrote:AN2.2:20:21
bad link
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Postby Tom » Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:16 pm

danieLion wrote:
alan... wrote:although bhikkhu bodhi is going so far as to compare the agamas and multiple editions of the pali canon to keep everything straight!
He's piggy-backing Reverend Analayo when it comes to the Agamas, and probably to a large extent with the multiple Pali "canon" editions.

Can you explain what you mean by "piggy-backing"?

danieLion wrote:
ccharles wrote:AN2.2:20:21
bad link


In Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Anguttara Nikaya, these phrases aren't split into two suttas, but are placed within a single sutta, AN 2.20
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Postby alan... » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:46 pm

danieLion wrote:
alan... wrote:although bhikkhu bodhi is going so far as to compare the agamas and multiple editions of the pali canon to keep everything straight!
He's piggy-backing Reverend Analayo when it comes to the Agamas, and probably to a large extent with the multiple Pali "canon" editions.


okay well either way he's contributing a lot of hard work and his translations are available everywhere, where are analayo's complete translation nikayas toe be found? also when you say "reverend analayo" are you talking about the guy who wrote "satipatthana: the direct path to realization"? if so, why not "bhikkhu analayo"? is he also a christian monastic of some kind? not that that word is reserved for them but that's the most common usage. if it just said "reverend johnson" or something i wouldn't even think for a second you were talking about anyone but a christian monastic, keeping his ordained name in the mix makes me think of a buddhist/christian of some kind. not that it matters, i'm just confused.
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Postby danieLion » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:40 am

ccharles wrote:Can you explain what you mean by "piggy-backing"?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/piggyback
ccharles wrote:In Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Anguttara Nikaya, these phrases aren't split into two suttas, but are placed within a single sutta, AN 2.20
so there's not a good link?
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Postby danieLion » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:48 am

alan... wrote:when you say "reverend analayo" are you talking about the guy who wrote "satipatthana: the direct path to realization"?
yes
alan... wrote:if so, why not "bhikkhu analayo"? is he also a christian monastic of some kind? not that that word is reserved for them but that's the most common usage. if it just said "reverend johnson" or something i wouldn't even think for a second you were talking about anyone but a christian monastic, keeping his ordained name in the mix makes me think of a buddhist/christian of some kind. not that it matters, i'm just confused.

You and Kim O'Hara. It has nothing to do with the clergy or Christians.
rev·er·end
adjective \ˈrev-rənd, ˈre-və-; ˈre-vərnd\
Definition of REVEREND
1: worthy of reverence : revered

see also: The use of "Bhante"
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Postby Tom » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:39 pm

danieLion wrote:
ccharles wrote:Can you explain what you mean by "piggy-backing"?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/piggyback


But in the way you used the term, are you saying it's as if Bhikkhu Bodhi is "riding on the back" of Bhikkhu Analayo or Bhikkhu Analayo is "riding on the back" of Bhikkhu Bodhi?

danieLion wrote:
ccharles wrote: In Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Anguttara Nikaya, these phrases aren't split into two suttas, but are placed within a single sutta, AN 2.20
so there's not a good link?


I would post Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation if I knew I wasn't violating any possible copyright issues. Does anyone here know if this would be violating any copyright issues?
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:48 pm

Hi ccharles,

I think that posting extracts, or small suttas such as that, would fall under fair use in most jurisdictions.

:anjali:
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Postby Tom » Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:04 am

From Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of AN 2.20:
“Bhikkhus, there are these two things that lead to the decline and disappearance of the good Dhamma. What two? [59] Badly set down words and phrases and badly interpreted meaning.238 When the words and phrases are badly set down, the meaning is badly interpreted. These are the two things that lead to the decline and disappearance of the good Dhamma. “Bhikkhus, there are these two things that lead to the continuation, non-decline, and non-disappearance of the good Dhamma. What two? Well-set down words and phrases and well-interpreted meaning.239 When the words and phrases are well set down, the meaning is well interpreted. These are the two things that lead to the continuation, non-decline, and non-disappearance of the good Dhamma.”
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Postby danieLion » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:54 am

What do the behaviors of "setting down words" and "interpreting meanings" look like to the average observer? Please include in your description what they look like when done "badly" and and what they look like when done "well." In other words, four behavioral descriptions.
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Postby alan... » Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:36 am

danieLion wrote:
alan... wrote:when you say "reverend analayo" are you talking about the guy who wrote "satipatthana: the direct path to realization"?
yes
alan... wrote:if so, why not "bhikkhu analayo"? is he also a christian monastic of some kind? not that that word is reserved for them but that's the most common usage. if it just said "reverend johnson" or something i wouldn't even think for a second you were talking about anyone but a christian monastic, keeping his ordained name in the mix makes me think of a buddhist/christian of some kind. not that it matters, i'm just confused.

You and Kim O'Hara. It has nothing to do with the clergy or Christians.
rev·er·end
adjective \ˈrev-rənd, ˈre-və-; ˈre-vərnd\
Definition of REVEREND
1: worthy of reverence : revered

see also: The use of "Bhante"


you are absolutely correct. the same is true of many words. there are countless words that could be used for multiple things but usually are not as it creates confusion. if i wrote "ajahn vijju teaches near me." everyone would assume he is a buddhist teacher, but since the word literally means "teacher" i could just be talking about a college teacher of history or something so i wouldn't use "ajahn" in that way unless talking about a buddhist teacher to avoid confusion. as it is i have had "satipatthana" by analayo on my bookshelf right at my elbow every time you mentioned him but i was convinced you were talking about someone else lol!

the same goes for different traditions, it would be confusing to say "ajahn sheng yen", it's appropriate, he is a teacher of buddhism but this would make people think he is in the thai tradition when he is chinese chan (or taiwanese). yes the word fits but makes it confusing. i realize these words are of different languages but on this forum it's an appropriate example as people on here use these titles before teachers names to differentiate between traditions, and of course to show respect, so for many on here they are known words that are not used interchangeably. so it's a contrast similar to "reverend" and "bhikkhu".

certainly "reverend" is appropriate for analayo if you want to be literal about it. out of curiosity, does he refer to himself in that way or does he call himself "bhikkhu" or "venerable" or another word like that? what about official documents at the monastery where he is ordained, and his publications?
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Postby danieLion » Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:13 am

alan... wrote:certainly "reverend" is appropriate for analayo if you want to be literal about it.
What's the opposite of "literal"?
alan... wrote:out of curiosity, does he refer to himself in that way or does he call himself "bhikkhu" or "venerable" or another word like that? what about official documents at the monastery where he is ordained, and his publications?
I neither know (I recall Bikkhu and maybe Ven.) nor care. I trust that if I ever have the chance to communicate with him and refer to him as Reverend he won't care either. And if for some strange reason contrary to what I know about him he's uptight or a jerk about it, and actually does care, I'll re-assess at that time.
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Postby alan... » Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:25 am

danieLion wrote:
alan... wrote:certainly "reverend" is appropriate for analayo if you want to be literal about it.
What's the opposite of "literal"?
alan... wrote:out of curiosity, does he refer to himself in that way or does he call himself "bhikkhu" or "venerable" or another word like that? what about official documents at the monastery where he is ordained, and his publications?
I neither know (I recall Bikkhu and maybe Ven.) nor care. I trust that if I ever have the chance to communicate with him and refer to him as Reverend he won't care either. And if for some strange reason contrary to what I know about him he's uptight or a jerk about it, and actually does care, I'll re-assess at that time.


opposite of literal would be... "ambiguous" perhaps?

surely he wouldn't care. however i imagine if he was walking down a crowded street and you were a block behind him and yelled "reverend" he wouldn't turn, but "bhikkhu" or "venerable" would likely catch his ear. oh well, it doesn't matter anyway. thanks for the patient responses :smile: .
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Postby daverupa » Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:41 am

alan... wrote:opposite of literal would be...


...figurative.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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