Sotapanna and five precepts

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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby SarathW » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:01 am

Thanks Devarupa
I read the link. But I could not get what you said there.
Where does it mentioned about Sotapanna?
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby daverupa » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:08 am

SarathW wrote:Where does it mentioned about Sotapanna?


Ananda, the bhikkhu knows, it is impossible, that one come to right view...


This passage refers to the stream-enterer.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby SarathW » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:23 am

Thanks
Your statement is supported here as well:

Page 42:

22. Eradication of the Akusala Cittas by the four
classes of Aryan disciples.
A Sotàpanna (Stream-Winner) eradicates the 1st,
2nd, 5th, 6th, and 11th types of consciousness as he has
destroyed the two Fetters (Saüyojana)—Sakkàyadiññhi
(Self-illusion) and Vicikicchà (Doubts).
A Sakadàgàmi (Once-Returner), who has attained
the second stage of Sainthood, weakens the potentiality of
the 9th and 10th types of consciousness, because he has
only attenuated the two Fetters—Kàmaràga (Sense-desire)
and Pañigha (Hatred).
An Anàgàmi (Never-Returner), who has attained the
third stage of Sainthood, eradicates the above two types of consciousness
as he has completely destroyed the said two Fetters.

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby rohana » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:28 am

retrofuturist wrote:Source: (http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=50" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )
Nanavira Thera wrote:Why am I glad that you are shocked to learn that a sekha bhikkhu can be fond of talk (and worse)? Because it gives me the opportunity of insisting that unless you bring the sekha down to earth the Buddha's Teaching can never be a reality for you. So long as you are content to put the sotāpanna on a pedestal well out of reach, it can never possibly occur to you that it is your duty to become sotāpanna yourself (or at least to make the attempt) here and now in this very life; for you will simply take it as axiomatic that you cannot succeed.
...


On that note, I believe there's a commentarial story about Anāthapindika's daughter who became a sakadāgāmi but was severely distressed over not being able to find a husband that she stopped eating and eventually died? Also, Anāthapindika, meeting his daughter on her deathbed, is unable to recognize her attainment.

Edit: Here's the story:

    The son, in spite of his father's efforts, showed no piety until he was finally bribed to go to the vihāra and listen to the Buddha's preaching. The daughters, on the other hand, were most dutiful and helped their father in ministering to the monks. The two elder ones attained to the First Fruit of the Path, married, and went to live with the families of their husbands. Sumanā obtained the Second Fruit of the Path, but remained unmarried. Overwhelmed with disappointment because of her failure in finding a husband, she refused to eat and died and was reborn in Tusita (DhA.i.128f).
    Anathapindika

    Anathapindika and Visakha were so intimately acquainted with the
    needs of the monks that they were much sought after to accompany
    those who desired to carry alms to the monks. When Visakha left her
    house, she appointed a granddaughter to dispense alms in her place.
    Anathapindika assigned a similar duty to his oldest daughter. The
    latter attained the Fruit of Conversion, married, and was succeeded by
    a younger sister. She also attained the Fruit of Conversion, married,
    and was succeeded by the youngest daughter Sumana. (151)

    Sumana attained the Fruit of the Second Path, but remained un-
    married. Thereat she sickened, would eat nothing, and sent for her
    father. When the latter asked her what was the matter, she addressed
    him as "youngest brother," and died. Anathapindika, unable to quiet
    his grief, went to the Teacher and told him what had happened.
    " Why do you grieve ? " said the Teacher. " Know you not that death
    is certain for all V "I know that, Venerable sir ; but my daughter
    talked incoherently when she died, addressing me as 'youngest
    brother.' " " She spoke quite correctly," replied the Teacher, " for she
    had attained the Fruit of the Second Path, while you have attained
    only the Fruit of Conversion." 27 Thereupon the Teacher informed
    Anathapindika that Sumana had been reborn in the Tusita heaven,
    and pronounced Stanza 18, at the conclusion of which many were
    established in the Fruits. (151-4)
    Buddhaghōṣa's Dhammapada Commentary

So was it that Anāthapindika did not recognize any attainment in her daughter at all, or just did not recognize that she had a higher attainment than him?
Last edited by rohana on Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Delighting in existence, O monks, are gods and men; they are attached to existence, they revel in existence. When the Dhamma for the cessation of existence is being preached to them, their minds do not leap towards it, do not get pleased with it, do not get settled in it, do not find confidence in it. That is how, monks, some lag behind."
- It. p 43
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby Chi » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:36 am

I think it depends on how picky one is about the precepts. The precepts can go infinitely deep.

For example, if somebody asks a sotapanna, "How are you?" and the sotapanna is not feeling well or is distressed, and he answers, "good" or "well," is he breaking a precept?

Or if a sotapanna, or anybody for that matter, holds back speech, which is beneficial and truthful, is he breaking a precept?
Do Good, Avoid Evil, Purify the Mind.
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby SarathW » Fri May 23, 2014 4:38 am

Another strong support for observing precepts:

The four factors of stream-entry, briefly stated, are as follows:
1) buddhe aveccappasadena samannagato;
2) dhamme aveccappasadena samannagato;
3) saghe aveccappasadena samannagato;
4) ariyakantehi silehi samannagato.25
1) He is endowed with confidence born of understanding in the Buddha;
2) he is endowed with confidence born of understanding in the Dhamma;
3) he is endowed with confidence born of understanding in the Sagha;
4) he is endowed with virtues dear to the Noble Ones.
The stream-winner has a deep faith in the Buddha, in the Dhamma and
in the Sagha that is born of understanding. His virtue is also of a higher
order, since it is well based on that faith. So in the definition of the faculty
of faith we have an echo of chanda-iddhipada.
P669
http://www.seeingthroughthenet.net/file ... ed_VII.pdf

This is supported by the following Sutta:

"He/she is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Another Sutta to support the OP:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Last edited by SarathW on Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby SarathW » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:50 am

Sambodhi in Oz wrote:Don't remember the sutta but what I understand is that the things which a sotapanna can't do are :

1. Patricide
2. Matricide
3. Hurting a Buddha ( kill nobody can)
4. Cause schism in Buddha's order
5. Kill an Arhant

This are probably the worst crimes which a sotapanna can't do. On other things they may commit but will immediately recognise the mistake and make amends.

Regards

Parth


Ratana Sutta

At the moment of attaining sight,
one abandons three things:
identity-views, uncertainty,
& any attachment to precepts & practices.[3]
One is completely released
from the four states of deprivation,[4]
and incapable of committing
the six great wrongs.[5]
This, too, is an exquisite treasure in the Sangha.
By this truth may there be well-being.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#fnt-5

5.The six great wrongs: murdering one's mother, murdering one's father, murdering an arahant (fully Awakened individual), wounding a Buddha, causing a schism in the Sangha, or choosing anyone other than a Buddha as one's foremost teacher.
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