Re: Literality of The Gradual Training
Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:19 am
"A graduated training" works. It encompasses the ossified ariya classification scheme as well as the more general schemas of graduated training.
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I did not expect that your perception to change.Cittasanto wrote:Hi Ground
That doesn't change what I thought you were saying, ...
Well neither have I applied the term "kamma" nor have I been talking about the idea "kamma". I have been talking about ideas clinging to themselves which I have called "volition".Cittasanto wrote: there are other factors in the world other that kamma alone which determines what is possible.
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
it was taken into account anyway.ground wrote:I did not expect that your perception to change.Cittasanto wrote:Hi Ground
That doesn't change what I thought you were saying, ...
Sounds more like fabrications (sankhara)Well neither have I applied the term "kamma" nor have I been talking about the idea "kamma". I have been talking about ideas clinging to themselves which I have called "volition".Cittasanto wrote: there are other factors in the world other that kamma alone which determines what is possible.
what do you think that quote says regarding the other factors I note?Besides what is your idea of "other factors"?The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Kind regards
"Other factors" qua concept (i.e. idea) as factors that determine an effect or effects (this is the context here) either corresponds to forms, sounds, aromas ... (an idea may only correspond but can never be a form, sound etc.) or cannot be affirmed as "being more" than just an idea. "being more" is misleading since an idea can never be "more" than just an idea, "being more" just implies that there is a sense impression regarding the 5 senses which corresponds and conventionally (i.e. across several human individuals) may entail the idea "other factors" and the symbols "other factors" as means of linguistic expression. The latter (sense impression of the 5 senses ... - > idea and linguistic expression) is just an instance of dependent origination.Cittasanto wrote:what do you think that quote says regarding the other factors I note?Besides what is your idea of "other factors"?The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Kind regards
Pretty ordinary ideas.Cittasanto wrote: Circumstance is the situations we are in, not all by our volition, be it the season, or how others treat us.
Disease is illness, something we do not volitionally bring upon ourselves, as in the three humours or a combination of the three.
carelessness is things that happen due to not paying attention, unwittingly done.
see SN36.21 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#fnt-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
there are concepts and reality. concepts should explain reality in relation to reality, i.e., the experiential, and show a way of working with or understanding reality.ground wrote: "Other factors" qua concept (i.e. idea) as factors that determine an effect or effects (this is the context here) either corresponds to forms, sounds, aromas ... (an idea may only correspond but can never be a form, sound etc.) or cannot be affirmed as "being more" than just an idea. "being more" is misleading since an idea can never be "more" than just an idea, "being more" just implies that there is a sense impression regarding the 5 senses which corresponds and conventionally (i.e. across several human individuals) may entail the idea "other factors" and the symbols "other factors" as means of linguistic expression. The latter (sense impression of the 5 senses ... - > idea and linguistic expression) is just an instance of dependent origination.
yet not accepted by all as seen in MN101.Pretty ordinary ideas.Cittasanto wrote: Circumstance is the situations we are in, not all by our volition, be it the season, or how others treat us.
Disease is illness, something we do not volitionally bring upon ourselves, as in the three humours or a combination of the three.
carelessness is things that happen due to not paying attention, unwittingly done.
see SN36.21 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#fnt-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Kind regards
Pretty ordinary idea.Cittasanto wrote:there are concepts and reality.
care to elaborate on that statement?ground wrote:Pretty ordinary idea.Cittasanto wrote:there are concepts and reality.
Kind regards
Well what can I say? I acknowledge that there are ideas. You have ideas, I have ideas. Humans have ideas. Ideas originating dependently as consciousness, conditioned by forms (letters), sounds (talking) in the context of further forms (seeing) and sounds (hearing) and aromas (smelling), etc. I can affirm ideas qua ideas. Besides this I can only refer (again) to SN35.23 quoted above.Cittasanto wrote:care to elaborate on that statement?ground wrote:Pretty ordinary idea.Cittasanto wrote:there are concepts and reality.
Kind regards
interesting way to say nothing.ground wrote: Well what can I say? I acknowledge that there are ideas. You have ideas, I have ideas. Humans have ideas. Ideas originating dependently as consciousness, conditioned by forms (letters), sounds (talking) in the context of further forms (seeing) and sounds (hearing) and aromas (smelling), etc. I can affirm ideas qua ideas. Besides this I can only refer (again) to SN35.23 quoted above.
Kind regards