Abhidhamma amata

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby Virgo » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:15 am

In the abhidhamma, nibbana is described as a paramattha dhamma. It is a form of nama which does not know anything itself. It does not arise or fall away. It is the unconditioned element. During path and fruition moments, the mind (citta) experiences nibbana and that experience removes defilements. So nibbana is known by the mind (according to abhidhamma).

Parinibbana is different. It is just the final death. Afterwards, no nama, mentallity, experiences nibbana or anything at all. In fact, nama and rupa no longer arise after parinibbana because there are no causes for their further becoming. That is to say the sense bases do not arise again, and consciousness which would arise based on their functionality and respective objects no longer arises either. All fetters have been removed and there is no further becoming.

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby Virgo » Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:16 am

kirk5a wrote:
Bagoba wrote:Do you see my meaning?

Yes, do you know any annihilationists who say anything like what I posted above?

So are you advocating some sort of eternal existence in a "dimension where earth does not arise, water does not arise, etc.", an "unborness" that exists after death forever? That would be the extreme of eternalism. This was clearly not meant by the Buddha and in fact, removal of all ten fetters removes all causes for any nama (which experiences things) or rupa to arise after the final death. I am not sure if you are trying to advocate such a position or not. If you are not then I apologize. The "dimension" spoken of in your quoted text is the element of nibbana that I described in my previous post here.

Annihilationism on the other hand would mean that something is destroyed. This is not the case. No 'self' can be destroyed, because there have never been any 'selves' to be destroyed; there is, however, delusion which causes self-view, which, of course, is a misunderstanding of phenomena, taking them for self. Likewise, that delusion is neither destroyed, it just does not arise anymore when the conditions for its arising are removed, by wisdom. Remember, it is not a solid, enduring entity, but a cetasika, and when the causes for it to arise are removed, there is no more dependant origination for it to come into being, if you will allow me to use the phrase that way. And, of course, no mind or matter are destroyed upon the final death for the same reasons that self-view is not destroyed-- the causes for coming into being again are just no longer present, not causing them to arise.

Nihilism differs from the Buddhist view of parinibbana in that in the Buddhist view, while the result is similar to what nihilists propose in a way - that is to say nothing arises or comes into being any longer after the [final] death - such an occurrence comes about because the causes and conditions for continued birth are finally fully extinguished - a rare thing indeed being that physical death alone is not sufficient but the removal of all the defilements is necessary to cause this.

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:27 am

Virgo wrote:So are you advocating some sort of eternal existence in a "dimension where earth does not arise, water does not arise, etc.", an "unborness" that exists after death forever? That would be the extreme of eternalism.

I posted the words of the Buddha, those are not my words. So clearly there is nowhere I was advocating eternalism, unless you think those words of the Buddha are advocating eternalism. But the Buddha did not contradict himself of course. He didn't speak against eternalism in one place and then expound eternalism elsewhere. Someone could question those translations, however.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby Virgo » Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:32 am

kirk5a wrote:
Virgo wrote:So are you advocating some sort of eternal existence in a "dimension where earth does not arise, water does not arise, etc.", an "unborness" that exists after death forever? That would be the extreme of eternalism.

I posted the words of the Buddha, those are not my words. So clearly there is nowhere I was advocating eternalism, unless you think those words of the Buddha are advocating eternalism. But the Buddha did not contradict himself of course. He didn't speak against eternalism in one place and then expound eternalism elsewhere. Someone could question those translations, however.

Nibbana can be experienced during life, during a path or fruit moment. At that time, the unborn, undying, element (where earth, water, fire, air, do not arise) can be experienced directly. This, of course, removes defilements. After the death of an Arahant, however, there are no more causes for mind or matter to arise again, the chain of dependant origination being fully broken if you will. So therefore, there is no experience no perception, no dwelling anywhere, etc. Just nothing.
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:37 am

Virgo wrote: while the result is similar to what nihilists propose in a way - that is to say nothing arises or comes into being any longer after the [final] death - such an occurrence comes about because the causes and conditions for continued birth are finally fully extinguished - a rare thing indeed being that physical death alone is not sufficient but the removal of all the defilements is necessary to cause this.

I think it's strange to say what nihilists propose as an idea which they've cooked up, based in ... what? Speculative thinking? Is "similar" to what the Buddha was talking about, rooted in direct meditative wisdom. I suppose nihilists deserve to state their own views, but I'd imagine they extrapolate a state of unconsciousness after death.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:42 am

Virgo wrote:Nibbana can be experienced during life, during a path or fruit moment. At that time, the unborn, undying, element (where earth, water, fire, air, do not arise) can be experienced directly. This, of course, removes defilements. ...

As I understand it, that's how the Theravada Commentaries would interpret those passages, and it's also how modern analysts such as Ven Nananada (in his lectures on Nibbana: The Mind Stilled http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katukurunde_Nanananda_Thera#Published_Work).

:anjali:
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:44 am

Virgo wrote:After the death of an Arahant, however, there are no more causes for mind or matter to arise again, the chain of dependant origination being fully broken if you will. So therefore, there is no experience no perception, no dwelling anywhere, etc. Just nothing.

[Sariputta:] "The statement, 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?' objectifies non-objectification.[1] The statement, '... is it the case that there is not anything else ... is it the case that there both is & is not anything else ... is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectifies non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes. However far objectification goes, that is how far the six contact media go. With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six contact-media, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of objectification.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby Virgo » Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:00 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Virgo wrote:Nibbana can be experienced during life, during a path or fruit moment. At that time, the unborn, undying, element (where earth, water, fire, air, do not arise) can be experienced directly. This, of course, removes defilements. ...

As I understand it, that's how the Theravada Commentaries would interpret those passages, and it's also how modern analysts such as Ven Nananada (in his lectures on Nibbana: The Mind Stilled http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katukurunde_Nanananda_Thera#Published_Work).

:anjali:
Mike

Thanks Mike.

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:08 am

Virgo wrote:That is actually an eternalistic view, not a nihilistic one, as far as I can tell.

I was just supposing, so what's a nihillistic one then?

In any case, my point was this:

117. "When those recluses and brahmins who are speculators about the past, speculators about the future, speculators about the past and the future together, who hold settled views about the past and the future, assert on sixty-two grounds various conceptual theorems referring to the past and the future — that too is only the feeling of those who do not know and do not see; that is only the agitation and vacillation of those who are immersed in craving.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html

So there is no similarity.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby Nyana » Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:10 am

Virgo wrote:In the abhidhamma, nibbana is described as a paramattha dhamma. It is a form of nama which does not know anything itself. It does not arise or fall away. It is the unconditioned element. During path and fruition moments, the mind (citta) experiences nibbana and that experience removes defilements.

C'mon Kevin, you're a pretty intelligent guy, you can do better than this. This type of essentialist language is useless.
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby Virgo » Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:14 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
Virgo wrote:In the abhidhamma, nibbana is described as a paramattha dhamma. It is a form of nama which does not know anything itself. It does not arise or fall away. It is the unconditioned element. During path and fruition moments, the mind (citta) experiences nibbana and that experience removes defilements.

C'mon Kevin, you're a pretty intelligent guy, you can do better than this. This type of essentialist language is useless.

That's how it is bud. It's one of the four classes of paramattha dhamma, nibbana dhatu, contacted by citta and so on.

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby Nyana » Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:25 am

Virgo wrote:That's how it is bud. It's one of the four classes of paramattha dhamma, nibbana dhatu, contacted by citta and so on.

You're missing the point. Nibbāna is the estinguishment of fetters pertaining to each noble path.
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:40 pm

Virgo wrote:Nibbana can be experienced during life, during a path or fruit moment. At that time, the unborn, undying, element (where earth, water, fire, air, do not arise) can be experienced directly. This, of course, removes defilements.


Could you be more specific about how this happens? Are you thinking of jhanic states for example?

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby Virgo » Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:53 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
Virgo wrote:Nibbana can be experienced during life, during a path or fruit moment. At that time, the unborn, undying, element (where earth, water, fire, air, do not arise) can be experienced directly. This, of course, removes defilements.


Could you be more specific about how this happens? Are you thinking of jhanic states for example?

Spiny

Hi Spiny,

The mind knows the nature of dhammas more and more clearly until finally there are conditions for it to finally, fully turn away from conditioned dhammas and know what has been unkown before since time without beginning-- the unarising, unceasing dhamma, nibbana. This is covered in the Stages of Insight.

When that happens the mind is at the level of jhana momentarily, whether samatha jhana is obtained beforehand or not. Without that depth of concentration, there is not enough penetration. This is the case, for example, with the hundreds (or possibly thousands) of examples of people in the Suttas who attained one of the paths and fruits while or after hearing a talk.

Now those who are master of jhana can re-experience fruit moments, but this does not remove defilements (you need a path moment).

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:02 pm

Virgo wrote:The mind knows the nature of dhammas more and more clearly until finally there are conditions for it to finally, fully turn away from conditioned dhammas and know what has been unkown before since time without beginning-- the unarising, unceasing dhamma, nibbana.
And where is this "unkown before since time without beginning-- the unarising, unceasing dhamma"? Is there just one? If no one at any particular time is awakened, it still is there, somewhere?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby Virgo » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:17 am

tiltbillings wrote:And where is this "unkown before since time without beginning-- the unarising, unceasing dhamma"? Is there just one? If no one at any particular time is awakened, it still is there, somewhere?

It does not arise or fall. It can only be known by a path of fruit moment, since at those times, the mind turns away from arising dhammas to that which does not arise or fall at all. It is what is 'beyond' everything else.

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:25 am

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And where is this "unkown before since time without beginning-- the unarising, unceasing dhamma"? Is there just one? If no one at any particular time is awakened, it still is there, somewhere?

It does not arise or fall. It can only be known by a path of fruit moment, since at those times, the mind turns away from arising dhammas to that which does not arise or fall at all. It is what is 'beyond' everything else.

Kevin
You did not answer the questions put to you.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby Virgo » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:35 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And where is this "unkown before since time without beginning-- the unarising, unceasing dhamma"? Is there just one? If no one at any particular time is awakened, it still is there, somewhere?

It does not arise or fall. It can only be known by a path of fruit moment, since at those times, the mind turns away from arising dhammas to that which does not arise or fall at all. It is what is 'beyond' everything else.

Kevin
You did not answer the questions put to you.

I answered them by explaining that it does not arise or fall away, ie. it is visaòkhåra. So to be more specific, since it does not arise or fall away, it cannot be said to be in any specific place; since it does not arise or fall away, we can't say it is one or many, neither one applies; and since it does not arise or fall away, it cannot be said to be "there" or not "there" depending on if people are awakened or not.


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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:40 am

Virgo wrote:I answered them by explaining that it does not arise or fall away, ie. it is visaòkhåra. So to be more specific, since it does not arise or fall away, it cannot be said to be in any specific place; since it does not arise or fall away, we can't say it is one or many, neither one applies; and since it does not arise or fall away, it cannot be said to be "there" or not "there" depending on if people are awakened or not.


Kevin
Sounds like an atman.

Where in the Abhidhamma Pitaka is this stated?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby Virgo » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:57 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:I answered them by explaining that it does not arise or fall away, ie. it is visaòkhåra. So to be more specific, since it does not arise or fall away, it cannot be said to be in any specific place; since it does not arise or fall away, we can't say it is one or many, neither one applies; and since it does not arise or fall away, it cannot be said to be "there" or not "there" depending on if people are awakened or not.


Kevin
Sounds like an atman.

What in the world makes you think it is an atman Tilt?

tiltbillings wrote:Where in the Abhidhamma Pitaka is this stated?

Not sure off hand but probably in the Dhatukatha. The Sixth chapter of the Sangaha, however, describes it's aspects: void, singleness, and not born of craving. Ajahn Sujin writes about this "Nibbåna paramattha dhamma can be classified
according to three characteristics:
voidness, suññatta,
signlessness, animitta,
desirelessness, appaùihita.
Nibbåna is called voidness, suññatta, because it is
devoid of all conditioned realities (saòkhåra dhammas). It is
called signlessness, animitta, because it is void of “signs,”
characteristics, of conditioned realities.
It is called desirelessness, appaùihita, because it is without any basis of desire,
namely, conditioned realities. "

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