The Lokayata Discourses

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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Postby vinasp » Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:53 pm

Hi everyone,

Here is the quotation from Mulamadhyamakakarika by Nagarjuna.

15:10

अस्तीति शाश्वतग्राहो नास्तीत्युच्चेददर्शनं
astīti śāśvatagrāho nāstītyuccedadarśanaṁ

To say "it is" is to grasp for permanence. To say "it is not" is to adopt the view of nihilism.

तस्माद् अस्तित्वनास्तित्वे नाश्रीयेत विचक्षणः।
tasmād astitvanāstitve nāśrīyeta vicakṣaṇaḥ

Therefore a wise person does not say "exists" or "does not exist".[5]

I can't comment on this yet. I need to understand the context.

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:05 pm

See the comments on that text by Ajahn Amaro here:
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11269#p169966

:anjali:
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Postby vinasp » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:11 pm

Hi mike,

Am I agreeing with those quotes? No.

This is the one we need to focus on, I think:

"The evidence for ‘being’ (the arising of things) is seen and seen through, the
evidence for ‘non-being’ (the cessation of things) is seen and seen through; both are thus let go of through perfect understanding, and the heart experiences release."

My comment: [ I can make no sense of this.]

It is hard to tell from such a short quote. I would need to read the whole
book to be sure. But, can you shed any light on what this passage means?

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:27 pm

I take them as one seeing the arising and passing away of phenomena experientially. One discerns contact-feeling-craving-etc happening moment by moment... And infers that it is also happening on a cosmic scale...

:anjali:
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Postby vinasp » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:11 pm

Hi everyone,

"That end of the world wherein one is not born, does not grow old or die, pass away or reappear, that I declare, is impossible to be known, seen or reached by travelling. But, friend, I do not declare that one can make an end of suffering without reaching the end of the world. Friend, I do proclaim that in this very fathom-long body, with its perceptions and consciousness, is the world, the world's arising, the world's cessation and the path leading to the world's cessation." A.N. II.48 Rohitassa (pali text) translated by Nanananda in Concept and Reality page 83.

AN 4.45 Link:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:32 pm

Hi Vincent,

Yes, a very popular interpretation is that Nibbana involves the "end of the world (of formations)", i.e. Nibbana involves the stopping of formations.

'This is peaceful, this is sublime, namely, the stilling of all conditioned things, the giving up of all substratum of becoming, the extinction of craving, detachment, Nibbana.'

[http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.060.piya.html and numerous other places.]

There is then some disagreement whether this ceasing of formations ("conditioned things" in that quote) is describing a temporary or permanent "state" (though even the word "state" is problematical in this context).

:anjali:
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:43 pm

This issue of what "happens" at Nibbana has been discussed before.
E.g.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5339
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7281

:anjali:
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Postby vinasp » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:33 am

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the link to those two threads, I had not noticed them. They are
both very interesting, but it will take me a while to read through them.

The question about nibbana is a tricky one. The Buddha speaks of two kinds
of liberation - temporary and delectable, and perpetual and unshakeable.
See MN 122.4 and MN 29.6-7

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Postby chownah » Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:46 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Vincent,

Yes, a very popular interpretation is that Nibbana involves the "end of the world (of formations)", i.e. Nibbana involves the stopping of formations.

'This is peaceful, this is sublime, namely, the stilling of all conditioned things, the giving up of all substratum of becoming, the extinction of craving, detachment, Nibbana.'

[http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.060.piya.html and numerous other places.]

There is then some disagreement whether this ceasing of formations ("conditioned things" in that quote) is describing a temporary or permanent "state" (though even the word "state" is problematical in this context).

:anjali:
Mike

I'd also like to point out that there is some disagreement as to whether formations "cease" or if they are "stilled". "Cease" sort of implies that there would be no formations at all (hard for a monk to walk without some kind of formations I guess) while "still" sort of implies that there are formations but they are not clung to (a monk could walk but wouldn't be concerned if the destination was reached or not)......I guess.....
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Postby vinasp » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:55 pm

Hi everyone,

Mike says that one interpretation is that, "nibbana involves the end of
the world (of formations)."

I think that I would agree with this, although the phrase "world of
formations", is not found in the Sutta Pitaka. [ correct me if I am wrong.]

However, in SN 12.49 "the world" is substituted for suffering in Dependent
Origination, (all twelve links).

I will quote the ending of this sutta. Bhikkhu Bodhi, Connected
Discourses, page 585 - 6:

"Bhikkhus, when a noble disciple thus understands as they really are
the origin and the passing away of the world, he is then called a
noble disciple who is accomplished in view, accomplished in vision,
who has arrived at this true Dhamma, who sees this true Dhamma, who
possesses a trainee's knowledge, a trainee's true knowledge, who has
entered the stream of the Dhamma, a noble one with penetrative wisdom,
one who stands squarely before the door to the Deathless."

My interpretation: All twelve links are the "world", when a noble
disciple understands how this "world" originates and passes away,
he has attained right view and has entered the stream. At this stage
it is just the understanding of how this can happen, the "world" has
not yet ceased.

On the question of formations, I think every link should be understood
as a formation (although this is not strictly correct).

Formations are mostly "old volition" or past volition which has become
an unconscious habit.

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Postby vinasp » Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:34 pm

Hi everyone,

One more very interesting passage from MN 48.

10. "Again, a noble disciple considers thus: 'Is there any other
recluse or brahmin outside possessed of a view such as I possess?"

"He understands thus: 'There is no other recluse or brahmin outside
possessed of a view such as I possess.' This is the third knowledge
attained by him that is noble, supramundane, not shared by ordinary
people."

The noble disciple has attained knowledge not shared by ordinary people.
He is thus an "insider" when compared to those who are "outsiders".
One becomes such an insider by understanding the four truths.

Also, he has attained right view while the outsiders have not.

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Postby vinasp » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:50 pm

Hi everyone,

To clarify my interpretation of this personal "world" which is said to
cease, I would stress the following points:

1. This "world" only arises once [although it may take a long time to
arise - even years.]

2. This "world" only ceases once [this can be sudden or gradual, and
is, more or less, the same thing as enlightenment.]

3. This "world" has no direct connection with the actual five senses, nor
are they included in it. So normal experience of the external world,
through the five senses, continues even after the cessation of this
personal "world".

4. This "world" is everything that we are clinging to, or the five
categories of clinging's objects. [ five clinging aggregates.]

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:13 am

Greetings Vincent,

What happens to the world when you go to sleep?

:zzz:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Postby kirk5a » Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:12 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Vincent,

What happens to the world when you go to sleep?

:zzz:

Metta,
Retro. :)

What happens to clinging when you go to sleep?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Postby chownah » Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:07 am

vinasp wrote: To clarify my interpretation of this personal "world" which is said to
cease,

If it is a "personal" world then there must be some person to which it belongs I guess.....who is that persons?....is it your "self"?
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:59 am

Greetings,
kirk5a wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Vincent,

What happens to the world when you go to sleep?

:zzz:

Metta,
Retro. :)

What happens to clinging when you go to sleep?

It presses the snooze button.

:lol:

In all seriousness though, I'm keen to see what Vincent has to say about it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Postby vinasp » Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:10 pm

Hi everyone,

The path that leads to the cessation of suffering is the same path as
the one which leads to the cessation of the world.

This is, of course, the noble eightfold path.

The first noble truth ends with: "... in short, the five clinging
aggregates are suffering."

And here is the definition of the first clinging aggregate -form:

"Whatever kind of form there is, whether past, future, or present,
internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far
or near, that is tainted, that can be clung to: this is called
the form aggregate subject to clinging." [ SN 22.48 ]

This definition includes all the form in the world or cosmos.

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Postby vinasp » Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:56 pm

Hi everyone,

In this Sutta the Buddha confirms that, for him, the "world" has ceased.

"Bhikkhus, the world has been fully understood by the Tathagata; the Tathagata is released from the world. The origin of the world has been fully understood by the Tathagata; the origin of the world has been abandoned by the Tathagata. The cessation of the world has been fully understood by the Tathagata; the cessation of the world has been realized by the Tathagata. The course leading to the cessation of the world has been fully understood by the Tathagata; the course leading to the cessation of the world has been developed by the Tathagata."

The Itivuttaka, translated by John D.Ireland, #112 The World, page 89.

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:24 pm

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