Rituals in Theravada

[fragrant herbs]

Not to mention the person's name, but a scholar wrote about Tantra in early Buddhism. Does anyone know about this?

I asked if this implied tantric sex, and he wrote back:

"I used the word in a more technical sense, as referring to the use of rituals aimed at worldly benefits (which would fall under our rubric of "magic," although this again is a heavily loaded term): exorcisms, rites to increase prosperity, heal diseases, obtain good crops, good fortune, etc. Sex can appear in that context too, but it is not the main thing."

So is any of this in the Pali Canon? Or does anyone know if early Buddhism taught this type of "magic."? Seems more like Hinduism to me, but I could be wrong.

[cooran]

Hello fh,

Please have a look at this current thread by Bhikkhu Gavesako:

Tantric Theravada?
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10503" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris

[fragrant herbs]

Thanks. That is exactly what I needed.

[Cittasanto]

You may also be interested to read DN1
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

these sort of practices although not unheard of in early Buddhist sources are classes of wrong livelihood, tantric sex would not of been practised by monastics (although there may of been cases) as this would break/fulfil the parajika rule (one would essentially be dead in the dhamma-viniya and no longer be a monastic/able to be a Buddhist monastic again).

[Kim OHara]

You may also be interested to read DN1
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

these sort of practices although not unheard of in early Buddhist sources are classes of wrong livelihood, tantric sex would not of been practised by monastics (although there may of been cases) as this would break/fulfil the parajika rule (one would essentially be dead in the dhamma-viniya and no longer be a monastic/able to be a Buddhist monastic again).

That's a really long read, Cittasanto, good though it is. Which sections in particular do you think are relevant?


Kim

[Cittasanto]

the long section on virtue, paragraphs 21-27

[Kim OHara]

Thanks. I thought that might be what you had in mind.

Something crossed my mind when I read the stock beginning of each paragraph, i.e.,"Or he might say: 'Whereas some recluses and brahmins, while living on the food offered by the faithful, earn their living by a wrong means of livelihood, by such debased arts as X."
That looks like a condemnation of the practices but it doesn't actually forbid them - look at what happens when I add emphasis: "Or he might say: 'Whereas some recluses and brahmins, while living on the food offered by the faithful, earn their living by a wrong means of livelihood, by such debased arts as X."
The Buddha actually says they are 'debased arts', which may mean no more than that they are often used fraudulently. He also says bhikkhus should not 'earn their living' from them. But he doesn't say bhikkus should not 'practice' them.
If I were really looking for a way of justifying such rituals, I could call that a loophole allowing his disciples to practice tantric/magical arts, strictly for their own spiritual development, if they found them useful.


Kim

[Cittasanto]

The Buddha actually says they are 'debased arts', which may mean no more than that they are often used fraudulently. He also says bhikkhus should not 'earn their living' from them. But he doesn't say bhikkus should not 'practice' them.
If I were really looking for a way of justifying such rituals, I could call that a loophole allowing his disciples to practice tantric/magical arts, strictly for their own spiritual development, if they found them useful.


Kim

Hi Kim, I can not remember properly but I think the actual use is covered in the Vinaya, possibly the culavagga or Mahavagga? or maybe even part of a sanghadisesa rule on corrupting families?? but not having access to that material at the moment I can not say if they are or are not forbidden properly or just as suggested here, forbidden as a means of getting gains.

it is Worth remembering the Buddha didn't forbid anything until it actually happened, so if it is this could potentially be from an earlier time, but my suspicion is that it would be the same as found here in DN1.

I remember a conversation with a friend a while ago where astrology... came up and my friend and I have both had spooky coincidences which are to close to ignore, the approximate idea about the personal use of this sort of thing was more as a means of seeing the mechanics of conditioning. our previous Kamma that has ripened in this human birth may not be specific to a time and place, but then again it may ripen when conditions are ripe for it to happen which is seen in some way through some of these 'tools'. I remember the Matrix film (last one I think) where the oracle says 'we can not see past the choices we make' and I personally find that sentiment true, and applicable to things such as astrology as reading the future is or can be haphazard but a reading for someone done with out it being known who it was for with all the information about their birthday... can be scarily accurate (I have heard of this being done for Hitler, Stalin and a few others whom are famous and not,) as the old adage goes "hindsight is a wonderful thing, to bad foresight isn't as good!"

[fragrant herbs]

Thanks for all the information. It is greatly appreciated.

[Tyler]

Everything that has been said is very true in the case of a monk, someone taking precepts, or anyone interested in enlightenment in this life time. I think its important for us not to forget that there are lay implications to many non-traditional Theravada practices. From a lay perspective it seems that it can be argued that tantric sex between two consenting parties is a more skillful means of understanding senses desires rooted in dukkha than just acting on our impulses. It seems very hard to tell what conditioning is more deeply rooted and henceforth more difficult to unlearn: the impulse to do or the impulse to test and find out. From my understanding of tantric rights it would seem that they would add to conditioned responses in addition to the impulse to do. In other words, by the time we realize the purpose of the action we test, we still have to deal with the impulse. Does this make tantra good, bad, or non-Theravadan for a lay-person: No. Is tantra a less skillful way for a Theravadan lay-person to attain the same inevitable truth that all sense desires are rooted in dukkha: Yes

[chownah]

I think that "tantra" and "tantric" are not well defined....these terms are used to cover a wide range of very different ideas and techniques. This makes it difficult to make blanket statements about them. I think it is dangerous to suggest that tantric practices are beneficial without defining what precisely is meant by "tantric" each and every time it is used.
chownah