"The Deathless" (amata)

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male_robin
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby male_robin » Mon May 20, 2013 8:20 am

tiltbillings wrote:
male_robin wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:. I would say you are pushing the definitions beyond what these definitions, as I have shown above, clearly say and into a realm of something.


I guess it depends on the definition of thing and it. The usual use of both words is rather casual. People use the words it and thing in reference to abstract concepts and intangible qualities all the time, without committing the fallacy of reification. Nibbana is the thing / subject / topic / matter we have been discussing. Of course, it is not a concrete thing. I do think it has some reality independent of anyone knowing it (relax, the its are simply impersonal prepositions that I am using so I do not have to keep repeating Nibbana. Oh, and my use "I" should not be construed to mean I am proposing a real self.)

You use the word Nibbana-ize. iirc, -Ize is a prefix that converts a noun or adjective into a verb, and carries the sense of to make into, become, or become like the noun or adjective to which it is affixed. However, the set of past particle adjectives or abstract nouns (the ones marked in the genitive case) we were just discussing seem to describe unbinding as unbecome (or freedom from becoming) and unmade. That's the problem with language. Saying that arhats are Nibbanized is no different than saying they have attained / acquired / or gotten Nibbana.

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby SarathW » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:04 am

What a debate!
To be honest with you I did not read the whole debate. I think it is incorrect to say Nibbana to explain Nibbana either.
It is just a name or sign post which gives the closest meaning.
So you can call anything you like.
So why don’t we call it Nibbana as Buddha said! At least we all understand what it means.

===========================
People use to call Sri Lanka with names such as Ceylon, Thprobane, Thambapanni etc.
Now we agreed to call it Sri Lanka.
:namaste:

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:53 am

SarathW wrote:What a debate!
To be honest with you I did not read the whole debate. I think it is incorrect to say Nibbana to explain Nibbana either.
It is just a name or sign post which gives the closest meaning.
So you can call anything you like.
I am rather partial to Orville.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby SarathW » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:08 am

:twothumbsup:

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:26 pm

Viscid wrote:Nibbana defined as simply being a state free from 'Greed, Hatred and Delusion' is selling it short. The language used to describe it in the suttas, especially in the Udana, seems to point at something more significant than that.



"'the liberated mind that no longer clings' means nibbāna"

Majjhima Nikaya 2-Att. 4.68
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby reflection » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:04 pm

Let me quote this again:

This was said by the Lord...

"Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbana-elements. What are the two? The Nibbana-element with residue left and the Nibbana-element with no residue left.

"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.

"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.

"These, bhikkhus, are the two Nibbana-elements."

These two Nibbana-elements were made known
By the Seeing One, stable and unattached:
One is the element seen here and now
With residue, but with the cord of being destroyed;
The other, having no residue for the future,
Is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease.


Having understood the unconditioned state,
Released in mind with the cord of being destroyed,
They have attained to the Dhamma-essence.
Delighting in the destruction (of craving),
Those stable ones have abandoned all being.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:42 pm

clw_uk wrote:"'the liberated mind that no longer clings' means nibbāna"

Majjhima Nikaya 2-Att. 4.68

For those wondering where to find this quotation (it is from the commentary to MN 106):
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=13021
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby Martin Po » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:53 pm

It's impossible to uproot greed, hatred and delusion witout Nibbana-element.
If some one have a doubt about Nibbana-element he have to establish his mindfulness.

When there is 1 there is 0. Between 1 and 0 there is endless river of concsiousness. Even between 0,00...01 and 0 there is endless hole of samsara. Zero is uncreate, stable, and pure. But when 1 disapear, there is nothing that remain.
Why?
Because like we can not tell where is a hole of eaten doughnut, like we can not tell where is extinguished fire, in the same way we can not tell where is the one who is Well Liberated.


Just as the destination of a glowing fire
struck with a [blacksmith's] iron hammer,
gradually growing calm,
isn't known:[1]
Even so, there's no destination to describe
for those rightly released
— having crossed over the flood
of sensuality's bond —
for those who've attained
unwavering bliss.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:56 pm

in the same way we can not tell where is the one who is Well Liberated.



That implies there is something to locate



:?:
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby Martin Po » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:07 pm

clw_uk wrote:
in the same way we can not tell where is the one who is Well Liberated.



That implies there is something to locate

:?:

No.
We can try to locate something, but there is nothing to locate.

Where is a hole of eaten doughnut?

MN 22
"And when the devas, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, search for the monk whose mind is thus released, they cannot find that 'The consciousness of the one truly gone (tathagata) [11] is dependent on this.' Why is that? The one truly gone is untraceable even in the here & now.

Also see "Samsara devided by Zero" (by Thanissaro Bhikkhu) + "A Heart Realesed" (Ajhan Mun)

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:35 pm

Martin Po wrote:It's impossible to uproot greed, hatred and delusion witout Nibbana-element.
So, there is some pre-existing thing that is required for awakening.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby SarathW » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:09 am

Hi Tilt
Your question started my brain ticking. It says “Nibbana is”. If Nibbana is unconditioned how can we say “Nibbana is”

I think answer lie between what Clw and Reflection said:

The Nibbana-element with residue left = “Nibbana is”

and the Nibbana-element with no residue left. = "'the liberated mind that no longer clings' means nibbāna"
:)

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:25 am

SarathW wrote:Hi Tilt
Your question started my brain ticking. It says “Nibbana is”. If Nibbana is unconditioned how can we say “Nibbana is”

I think answer lie between what Clw and Reflection said:

The Nibbana-element with residue left = “Nibbana is”

and the Nibbana-element with no residue left. = "'the liberated mind that no longer clings' means nibbāna"
:)
"Nibbana is" what?

"Nibbana-element" means what?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby SarathW » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:29 am

I thought we agreed on this!
Orville ;)

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby reflection » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:30 am

Nibbana without residue is not the non clinging mind. Taken as a whole, the suttas speak of two levels of cessation. First level, cessation of clinging - nibbana with residue remaining, the residue being a living arahant. Second level, cessation of the aggregates - nibbana without residue remaining, after death of an arahant. There is no more death from then on, because there is no rebirth, so here suffering really ended.

After attaining the first cessation, the second is an unavoidable result. So one can say, with attaining cessation of clinging one has attained the deathless (no more dying) while technically there will still be another death.

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby SarathW » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:45 am

Hi Reflection
There is no first death. Attaining Nibbana is not death. There is no second death just the elements went back to its original state.

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby reflection » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:54 am

I don't understand what you are saying. I think you may have misunderstood my post. What do you mean with first death and second death? I only mentioned one: obviously the Buddha still had to die after his enlightenment and so do all other enlightened beings. But that will be the last death.

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby SarathW » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:11 am

Hi Reflection
The way I understand is that we do not die but continually (every second) we change into something else.
The same way a caterpillar change to a butterfly
:)

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby reflection » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:13 am

Well, perhaps visit a cemetery to know what I mean. ;)

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby SarathW » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:24 am

:mrgreen:


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