"The Deathless" (amata)

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:43 am

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Is that all you got out of that essay?

Ah, if only. That would surely be enough. But back to what you want me to get out of the essay. Which is?
I really do not understand what it is that you do not understand.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:46 am

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Is that all you got out of that essay?

Ah, if only. That would surely be enough. But back to what you want me to get out of the essay. Which is?
Which is that one unbinds.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:57 am

tiltbillings wrote:Which is that one unbinds.

via consciousness which is not dwelling upon form, feeling, fabrications, perceptions or consciousness.

Consciousness, thus unestablished, not proliferating, not performing any function, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:08 am

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Which is that one unbinds.

via consciousness which is not dwelling upon form, feeling, fabrications, perceptions or consciousness.
Well, the point is that one is no longer conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion. One is unbound -- nibbana-ized --, one is free of the conditioning of greed, hatred, and delusion.


    "It is in this very fathom-long physical frame with its perceptions and mind, that, I declare, lies the world, and the arising of the world, and the cessation of the world, and the path leading to the cessation of the world." — SN 2.26


Keep in mind that this is the Four Noble Truth -- the whole of the Dhamma -- that is played out "in this very fathom-long physical frame with its perceptions and mind." No need for "an unborn" or "the Deathless" mysterious thingies here. We see, rather, the transformation of unbinding, the freedom from the conditioning that would impel us forward to birth and death and all that is in between.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:52 am

I thought the essay was reasonably clear:
Ajahn Thanissaro wrote:Now that nirvana has become an English word, it should have its own English verb to convey the sense of "being unbound" as well. At present, we say that a person "reaches" nirvana or "enters" nirvana, implying that nibbana is a place where you can go. But nirvana is most emphatically not a place. It's realized only when the mind stops defining itself in terms of place: of here, or there, or between the two.

The Buddha wrote:"One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world (doesn't cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within. One discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

:anjali:
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:20 am

mikenz66 wrote:I thought the essay was reasonably clear:
Not that I have read everything of Ven Thanissaro's, but of what I have read, this is, in my opinion, the best thing he has written, and it is quite clear.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:32 am

Perhaps he's plagiarizing Ven Nananda...
It's realized only when the mind stops defining itself in terms of place: of here, or there, or between the two.


:anjali:
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:44 am

mikenz66 wrote:Perhaps he's plagiarizing Ven Nananda...
It's realized only when the mind stops defining itself in terms of place: of here, or there, or between the two.


:anjali:
Mike
Or the Buddha, as in the Bahiya Sutta:


"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:34 pm

Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Amata.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:36 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Perhaps he's plagiarizing Ven Nananda...

Or, perhaps he actually knows what he is talking about.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:42 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Or the Buddha, as in the Bahiya Sutta:


"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."


Don't forget this part of the Bahiya sutta:

Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing:
There the stars do not shine,
the sun is not visible,
the moon does not appear,
darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has known [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:49 pm

kirk5a wrote:Don't forget this part of the Bahiya sutta:

Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing:
There the stars do not shine,
the sun is not visible,
the moon does not appear,
darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has known [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.
Certainly does not change or challenge my point.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:07 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Certainly does not change or challenge my point.

"Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing" is probably amata, don't you think?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:25 pm

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Certainly does not change or challenge my point.

"Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing" is probably amata, don't you think?
Now it looks as if you have just turned amata into "the Deathless."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:44 am

kirk5a wrote:Don't forget this part of the Bahiya sutta:

Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing:
There the stars do not shine,
the sun is not visible,
the moon does not appear,
darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has known [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.


The last paragraph talks about freedom from the form and formless, presumably this means freedom from the 3 realms? In which case this seems to correlate with DO in cessation ( reverse ) mode, ie the cessation of becoming in the 3 realms leads to cessation of birth and therefore to cessation of death - or you could say freedom from becoming leads to freedom from birth and therefore freedom from death.

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:57 am

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
kirk5a wrote:Don't forget this part of the Bahiya sutta:

Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing:
There the stars do not shine,
the sun is not visible,
the moon does not appear,
darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has known [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.


The last paragraph talks about freedom from the form and formless, presumably this means freedom from the 3 realms? In which case this seems to correlate with DO in cessation ( reverse ) mode, ie the cessation of becoming in the 3 realms leads to cessation of birth and therefore to cessation of death - or you could say freedom from becoming leads to freedom from birth and therefore freedom from death.

Spiny
Dinsdale would be proud of you.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby squarepeg » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:41 am

Im Sofa King We Tod Did
When one sees this with understanding
that is the path to suffering

:jumping:

Who's on first?

:focus:
"Yadisam vapate bijam tadisam harate phalam" — as we sow, so shall we reap
Maranam Bhavissati - "death will take place"
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby ground » Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:30 am

"The deathless" qua term and translation may be a manifestation of fear of death.

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:01 am

TMingyur wrote:"The deathless" qua term and translation may be a manifestation of fear of death.

Kind regards


It's possible, but I still don't see the objection to a straightforward understanding based on the way DO is described in the suttas - when birth ceases, so does death.

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby daverupa » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:51 am

Spiny O'Norman wrote:a straightforward understanding based on the way DO is described


"Do not say so, Ananda..."
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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