Okay. Now where in this is "the quality within one that isn't subject to arising or passing away"?kirk5a wrote:Those words are describing stream entry, I think they are in complete agreement with how stream entry is described in the Visuddhimagga and elsewhere, and I accept those as true and accurate accounts.
the Visuddhimagga wrote: 4. As soon as conformity knowledge has arisen in him in this way, and the
thick murk that hides the truths has been dispelled by the respective force peculiar
to each of the three kinds of conformity (see XXI.129f.), then his consciousness
no longer enters into or settles down on or resolves upon any field of formations
at all, or clings, cleaves or clutches on to it, but retreats, retracts and recoils as
water does from a lotus leaf, and every sign as object, every occurrence as object,
appears as an impediment.
5. Then, while every sign and occurrence appears to him as an impediment,
when conformity knowledge’s repetition has ended, change-of-lineage
knowledge arises in him, which takes as its object the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbána
"The Deathless" (amata)
- tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
"the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbána"tiltbillings wrote:Okay. Now where in this is "the quality within one that isn't subject to arising or passing away"?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
- tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
Which, however, does not "exist" before the "change-of-lineage knowledge" arises, before the cessation, and, of course, the terms "the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbána" all make my point.kirk5a wrote:"the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbána"tiltbillings wrote:Okay. Now where in this is "the quality within one that isn't subject to arising or passing away"?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
No apparently they do not make your point. Because you continually dispute with "the deathless," and "the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbana" = "the deathless."tiltbillings wrote:Which, however, does not "exist" before the "change-of-lineage knowledge" arises, before the cessation, and, of course, the terms "the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbána" all make my point.kirk5a wrote:"the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbána"tiltbillings wrote:Okay. Now where in this is "the quality within one that isn't subject to arising or passing away"?
change-of-lineage knowledge arises in him, which takes as its object...Nibbana...which, being the first
adverting, the first concern, the first reaction, to Nibbána as object...
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
That's not the dispute I have seen; I have seen tilt clarifying whether or not such terms become ossified and taken as existent objects, not whether one metaphor equates with another.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
Please support this assertion with evidence. Specifically, since we are referring to the Visuddhimagga at the moment, where in the Visuddhimagga it says that Nibaana does not exist before the change of lineage knowledge arises.tiltbillings wrote:Which, however, does not "exist" before the "change-of-lineage knowledge" ariseskirk5a wrote: "the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbána"
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
Extinguishment (nibbāna) is an absence. This is implied in Ud 8.1 by the long list of negations, which include stating that there is no object (anārammaṇa). However, some difficulties arose when the commentators were trying to systematically explain how there can be knowledge of nibbāna, and in so doing, posited nibbāna as a real existent with its own nature (sabhāva).kirk5a wrote:No apparently they do not make your point. Because you continually dispute with "the deathless," and "the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbana" = "the deathless."
change-of-lineage knowledge arises in him, which takes as its object...Nibbana...which, being the first
adverting, the first concern, the first reaction, to Nibbána as object...
As an analogy, when there is no pot on the table one can know that there is no pot on the table via direct perception. But this doesn't mean that there is an existent "non-pot" or the presence of a "potless" thing that one perceives as the absence of a pot. Or in terms of the fire metaphor found in the suttas, when a fire goes out one can know that the fire has been extinguished via direct perception. But this doesn't entail that there is an existent "extinguishment" (i.e. a "non-fire") or the presence of an "extinguished" thing that one perceives as the absence of fire.
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
So then you are saying that the account of stream entry in the Visuddhimagga is inaccurate as stated. Even though it agrees completely with the Buddha's own words here:Ñāṇa wrote: Extinguishment (nibbāna) is an absence. This is implied in Ud 8.1 by the long list of negations, which include stating that it is not an object (anārammaṇa). However, some difficulties arose when the commentators were trying to systematically explain how there can be knowledge of nibbāna, and in so doing, posited nibbāna as a real existent with its own nature (sabhāva).
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
compare:
then his consciousness
no longer enters into or settles down on or resolves upon any field of formations
at all, or clings, cleaves or clutches on to it, but retreats, retracts and recoils as
water does from a lotus leaf, and every sign as object, every occurrence as object,
appears as an impediment.
5. Then, while every sign and occurrence appears to him as an impediment,
when conformity knowledge’s repetition has ended, change-of-lineage
knowledge arises in him, which takes as its object the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbána,
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
What I'm suggesting is that it's very helpful to understand the historical development of these epistemological issues and how these developments can give rise to unnecessary pseudo-problems when negations regarding cessation are posited as the presence of substantially existent things. But if you want to believe in potlessness and the presence of non-fires Kirk, then that's fine by me.kirk5a wrote:So then you are saying that the account of stream entry in the Visuddhimagga is inaccurate as stated.
- tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
It is very possible that I read through the VM passage you quote without the care I should have taken, having responded at work between bouts of activity. And now, having worked a long night shift, I am off the lap of goddess of sleep. If you would be kind enough to point out to me where "change-of-lineage knowledge" after nibbana, I'd appreciate it.kirk5a wrote:Please support this assertion with evidence. Specifically, since we are referring to the Visuddhimagga at the moment, where in the Visuddhimagga it says that Nibaana does not exist before the change of lineage knowledge arises.tiltbillings wrote:Which, however, does not "exist" before the "change-of-lineage knowledge" ariseskirk5a wrote: "the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbána"
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
I do not have any problems, pseudo or otherwise, with those words quoted above.Ñāṇa wrote: What I'm suggesting is that it's very helpful to understand the historical development of these epistemological issues and how these developments can give rise to unnecessary pseudo-problems when negations regarding cessation are posited as the presence of substantially existent things. But if you want to believe in potlessness and the presence of non-fires Kirk, then that's fine by me.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
I don't understand what you are asking here.tiltbillings wrote: If you would be kind enough to point out to me where "change-of-lineage knowledge" after nibbana, I'd appreciate it.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
- tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
Well, let me put it this way: I do not understand what you asking here:kirk5a wrote:I don't understand what you are asking here.tiltbillings wrote: If you would be kind enough to point out to me where "change-of-lineage knowledge" after nibbana, I'd appreciate it.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 62#p196555" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
I don't know what that link is supposed to be referring to, nor is your question above understandable, because it's not grammatical English.tiltbillings wrote:Well, let me put it this way: I do not understand what you asking here:kirk5a wrote:I don't understand what you are asking here.tiltbillings wrote: If you would be kind enough to point out to me where "change-of-lineage knowledge" after nibbana, I'd appreciate it.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 62#p196555" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
- tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
I would not undertand it either, given that I left out an important word. I need to talk with my proof-reader about catching missing words.kirk5a wrote:I don't understand what you are asking here.tiltbillings wrote: If you would be kind enough to point out to me where "change-of-lineage knowledge" after nibbana, I'd appreciate it.
Well, let me put it this way:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 62#p196543" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And in turn, it seems that you are suggesting that "change-of-lineage knowledge" comes after the realization of nibbana. What I am asking is If you would be kind enough to point out to me, in the VM passages quoted, where "change-of-lineage knowledge" comes after nibbana. I'd appreciate it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723