"The Deathless" (amata)

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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male_robin
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by male_robin »

tiltbillings wrote:
male_robin wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: . I would say you are pushing the definitions beyond what these definitions, as I have shown above, clearly say and into a realm of something.
I guess it depends on the definition of thing and it. The usual use of both words is rather casual. People use the words it and thing in reference to abstract concepts and intangible qualities all the time, without committing the fallacy of reification. Nibbana is the thing / subject / topic / matter we have been discussing. Of course, it is not a concrete thing. I do think it has some reality independent of anyone knowing it (relax, the its are simply impersonal prepositions that I am using so I do not have to keep repeating Nibbana. Oh, and my use "I" should not be construed to mean I am proposing a real self.)

You use the word Nibbana-ize. iirc, -Ize is a prefix that converts a noun or adjective into a verb, and carries the sense of to make into, become, or become like the noun or adjective to which it is affixed. However, the set of past particle adjectives or abstract nouns (the ones marked in the genitive case) we were just discussing seem to describe unbinding as unbecome (or freedom from becoming) and unmade. That's the problem with language. Saying that arhats are Nibbanized is no different than saying they have attained / acquired / or gotten Nibbana.
SarathW
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by SarathW »

What a debate!
To be honest with you I did not read the whole debate. I think it is incorrect to say Nibbana to explain Nibbana either.
It is just a name or sign post which gives the closest meaning.
So you can call anything you like.
So why don’t we call it Nibbana as Buddha said! At least we all understand what it means.

===========================
People use to call Sri Lanka with names such as Ceylon, Thprobane, Thambapanni etc.
Now we agreed to call it Sri Lanka.
:namaste:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

SarathW wrote:What a debate!
To be honest with you I did not read the whole debate. I think it is incorrect to say Nibbana to explain Nibbana either.
It is just a name or sign post which gives the closest meaning.
So you can call anything you like.
I am rather partial to Orville.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
SarathW
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by SarathW »

:twothumbsup:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by Ceisiwr »

Viscid wrote:Nibbana defined as simply being a state free from 'Greed, Hatred and Delusion' is selling it short. The language used to describe it in the suttas, especially in the Udana, seems to point at something more significant than that.

"'the liberated mind that no longer clings' means nibbāna"

Majjhima Nikaya 2-Att. 4.68
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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reflection
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by reflection »

Let me quote this again:
This was said by the Lord...

"Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbana-elements. What are the two? The Nibbana-element with residue left and the Nibbana-element with no residue left.

"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.

"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.

"These, bhikkhus, are the two Nibbana-elements."

These two Nibbana-elements were made known
By the Seeing One, stable and unattached:
One is the element seen here and now
With residue, but with the cord of being destroyed;
The other, having no residue for the future,
Is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease.


Having understood the unconditioned state,
Released in mind with the cord of being destroyed,
They have attained to the Dhamma-essence.
Delighting in the destruction (of craving),
Those stable ones have abandoned all being.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

clw_uk wrote: "'the liberated mind that no longer clings' means nibbāna"

Majjhima Nikaya 2-Att. 4.68
For those wondering where to find this quotation (it is from the commentary to MN 106):
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=13021
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
Martin Po
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by Martin Po »

It's impossible to uproot greed, hatred and delusion witout Nibbana-element.
If some one have a doubt about Nibbana-element he have to establish his mindfulness.

When there is 1 there is 0. Between 1 and 0 there is endless river of concsiousness. Even between 0,00...01 and 0 there is endless hole of samsara. Zero is uncreate, stable, and pure. But when 1 disapear, there is nothing that remain.
Why?
Because like we can not tell where is a hole of eaten doughnut, like we can not tell where is extinguished fire, in the same way we can not tell where is the one who is Well Liberated.


Just as the destination of a glowing fire
struck with a [blacksmith's] iron hammer,
gradually growing calm,
isn't known:[1]
Even so, there's no destination to describe
for those rightly released
— having crossed over the flood
of sensuality's bond —
for those who've attained
unwavering bliss.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Ceisiwr
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by Ceisiwr »

in the same way we can not tell where is the one who is Well Liberated.

That implies there is something to locate



:?:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Martin Po
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Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:41 am

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by Martin Po »

clw_uk wrote:
in the same way we can not tell where is the one who is Well Liberated.

That implies there is something to locate

:?:
No.
We can try to locate something, but there is nothing to locate.

Where is a hole of eaten doughnut?

MN 22
"And when the devas, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, search for the monk whose mind is thus released, they cannot find that 'The consciousness of the one truly gone (tathagata) [11] is dependent on this.' Why is that? The one truly gone is untraceable even in the here & now.

Also see "Samsara devided by Zero" (by Thanissaro Bhikkhu) + "A Heart Realesed" (Ajhan Mun)
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

Martin Po wrote:It's impossible to uproot greed, hatred and delusion witout Nibbana-element.
So, there is some pre-existing thing that is required for awakening.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
SarathW
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by SarathW »

Hi Tilt
Your question started my brain ticking. It says “Nibbana is”. If Nibbana is unconditioned how can we say “Nibbana is”

I think answer lie between what Clw and Reflection said:

The Nibbana-element with residue left = “Nibbana is”

and the Nibbana-element with no residue left. = "'the liberated mind that no longer clings' means nibbāna"
:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

SarathW wrote:Hi Tilt
Your question started my brain ticking. It says “Nibbana is”. If Nibbana is unconditioned how can we say “Nibbana is”

I think answer lie between what Clw and Reflection said:

The Nibbana-element with residue left = “Nibbana is”

and the Nibbana-element with no residue left. = "'the liberated mind that no longer clings' means nibbāna"
:)
"Nibbana is" what?

"Nibbana-element" means what?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
SarathW
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by SarathW »

I thought we agreed on this!
Orville ;)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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reflection
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by reflection »

Nibbana without residue is not the non clinging mind. Taken as a whole, the suttas speak of two levels of cessation. First level, cessation of clinging - nibbana with residue remaining, the residue being a living arahant. Second level, cessation of the aggregates - nibbana without residue remaining, after death of an arahant. There is no more death from then on, because there is no rebirth, so here suffering really ended.

After attaining the first cessation, the second is an unavoidable result. So one can say, with attaining cessation of clinging one has attained the deathless (no more dying) while technically there will still be another death.
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