The right way to talk about something spoken by a Venerable would be to read what else he said, and discuss whatever else might apply. Not repeated badgering of me, trying to get me to be beholden to "nibbana does exist" and justify, expand and explain that statement to your satisfaction.tiltbillings wrote:http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 2&#p199292" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;kirk5a wrote: And I haven't refused to discuss what Ven. Nagasena meant by "nibbana does exist"
"The Deathless" (amata)
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
Well, you are the one who put it out there. If you can not discuss or make sense of it, then may be you do not undederstand what it means.kirk5a wrote:The right way to talk about something spoken by a Venerable would be to read what else he said, and discuss whatever else might apply. Not repeated badgering of me, trying to get me to be beholden to "nibbana does exist" and justify, expand and explain that statement to your satisfaction.tiltbillings wrote:http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 2&#p199292" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;kirk5a wrote: And I haven't refused to discuss what Ven. Nagasena meant by "nibbana does exist"
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
And, of course, there is no "the mind" to be perceived.daverupa wrote: This would mean that a liberated mind can be perceived, but not a thing 'liberation'. So, too, one perceives a nibbanized mind, but not a thing 'nibbana'. (Both sentences have the same meaning, of course.)
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
Well, it would be that greed/hatred/delusion have ceased, ahead of & precipitating the final breakup of the aggregates, yes?tiltbillings wrote:And, of course, there is no "the mind" to be perceived.daverupa wrote: This would mean that a liberated mind can be perceived, but not a thing 'liberation'. So, too, one perceives a nibbanized mind, but not a thing 'nibbana'. (Both sentences have the same meaning, of course.)
It's noting a lack, not noting "A-ha! Look there: a 'lack' has appeared."
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
The core idea that I have trying to get at with all this is the Dhamma is not about things, objects, substances, identities. When one talks about "the Deathless" something is seriously lost. It suggests, intentionally or not, that there is some substantial, objective "Truth" out there that we can get. The Buddha suggests something radically different from that in terms of seeing what we are in terms of experiential process. There is a reason why the Buddha said: Who sees paticcasamuppada sees Dhamma, who sees Dhamma sees paticcasamuppda. - MN 1 190-1. Truth/Dhamma is to be seen/known/experienced in terms of the experiential process that we are, and nowhere else.daverupa wrote:Well, it would be that greed/hatred/delusion have ceased, ahead of & precipitating the final breakup of the aggregates, yes?tiltbillings wrote:And, of course, there is no "the mind" to be perceived.daverupa wrote: This would mean that a liberated mind can be perceived, but not a thing 'liberation'. So, too, one perceives a nibbanized mind, but not a thing 'nibbana'. (Both sentences have the same meaning, of course.)
It's noting a lack, not noting "A-ha! Look there: a 'lack' has appeared."
- SN 2.26: It is in this very fathom-long physical frame with its perceptions and mind, that, I declare, lies the world, and the arising of the world, and the cessation of the world, and the path leading to the cessation of the world. [26]
- 26.The import of this significant declaration can be understood in the context of those suttas in which the Buddha defines the concept of the world. The 'world,' for the Buddha, arises in the six sense-spheres (See above Note 21). Hence its cessation too, is to be experienced there, in the cessation of the six sense-spheres (salaayatananirodha). "I will teach you, monks, how the world comes to be and passes away... What monks, is the arising of the world? Dependent on eye and forms, arises visual consciousness. The concurrence of the three is contact. Conditioned by contact is feeling. Conditioned by feeling, craving. Conditioned by craving, grasping. Conditioned by grasping, becoming. Conditioned by becoming, birth. And conditioned by birth, arise decay, death, grief lamentation, suffering, despair. This is the arising of the world.
And what, monks, is the passing away of the world? Dependent on the eye and forms arise visual consciousness. The concurrence of the three is contact. Conditioned by contact is feeling. Conditioned by feeling is craving. By the utter fading away and cessation of that craving, grasping ceases, by the ceasing of grasping, becoming ceases, by the ceasing of becoming birth ceases, by the ceasing of birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamentation, suffering, despair, cease. Such is the ceasing of this entire man[sic; should be 'mass'] of Ill." -- SN ii 73 CDB i 581
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... passage-10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... tml#fnt-26" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- "Monks, I will teach you the all. And what is the all? The eye and forms, the ear and sounds the nose and odors, the tongue and tastes, the body and touch, the mind and mental phenomena. This is called the all. If anyone, monks, should speak thus: ' Having rejected this all, I shall make known another all' - that would be a mere empty boast." SN IV 15.
- 26.The import of this significant declaration can be understood in the context of those suttas in which the Buddha defines the concept of the world. The 'world,' for the Buddha, arises in the six sense-spheres (See above Note 21). Hence its cessation too, is to be experienced there, in the cessation of the six sense-spheres (salaayatananirodha). "I will teach you, monks, how the world comes to be and passes away... What monks, is the arising of the world? Dependent on eye and forms, arises visual consciousness. The concurrence of the three is contact. Conditioned by contact is feeling. Conditioned by feeling, craving. Conditioned by craving, grasping. Conditioned by grasping, becoming. Conditioned by becoming, birth. And conditioned by birth, arise decay, death, grief lamentation, suffering, despair. This is the arising of the world.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
That is identification.tiltbillings wrote:The core idea that I have trying to get at with all this is the Dhamma is not about things, objects, substances, identities.
...
Truth/Dhamma is to be seen/known/experienced in terms of the experiential process that we are, and nowhere else.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
Oh, please. I'd ask you to show how that use of conventional language is "identification," but likely you will refuse, as you so often have refused to engage in discussion of what is said, but you do like to throw out the brickbats. I'll rephrase:kirk5a wrote:That is identification.tiltbillings wrote:The core idea that I have trying to get at with all this is the Dhamma is not about things, objects, substances, identities.
...
Truth/Dhamma is to be seen/known/experienced in terms of the experiential process that we are, and nowhere else.
Truth/Dhamma is to be seen/known/experienced in terms of the experiential process of conditioned co-production/paticcasamuppada, and nowhere else.
- Who sees paticcasamuppada sees Dhamma, who sees Dhamma sees paticcasamuppda. - MN 1 190-1
- SN 2.26: It is in this very fathom-long physical frame with its perceptions and mind, that, I declare, lies the world, and the arising of the world, and the cessation of the world, and the path leading to the cessation of the world. 26
- 26.The import of this significant declaration can be understood in the context of those suttas in which the Buddha defines the concept of the world. The 'world,' for the Buddha, arises in the six sense-spheres (See above Note 21). Hence its cessation too, is to be experienced there, in the cessation of the six sense-spheres (salaayatananirodha). "I will teach you, monks, how the world comes to be and passes away... What monks, is the arising of the world? Dependent on eye and forms, arises visual consciousness. The concurrence of the three is contact. Conditioned by contact is feeling. Conditioned by feeling, craving. Conditioned by craving, grasping. Conditioned by grasping, becoming. Conditioned by becoming, birth. And conditioned by birth, arise decay, death, grief lamentation, suffering, despair. This is the arising of the world.
And what, monks, is the passing away of the world? Dependent on the eye and forms arise visual consciousness. The concurrence of the three is contact. Conditioned by contact is feeling. Conditioned by feeling is craving. By the utter fading away and cessation of that craving, grasping ceases, by the ceasing of grasping, becoming ceases, by the ceasing of becoming birth ceases, by the ceasing of birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamentation, suffering, despair, cease. Such is the ceasing of this entire man[sic; should be 'mass'] of Ill." [-- SN ii 73 CDB i 581]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... passage-10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... tml#fnt-26" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- 26.The import of this significant declaration can be understood in the context of those suttas in which the Buddha defines the concept of the world. The 'world,' for the Buddha, arises in the six sense-spheres (See above Note 21). Hence its cessation too, is to be experienced there, in the cessation of the six sense-spheres (salaayatananirodha). "I will teach you, monks, how the world comes to be and passes away... What monks, is the arising of the world? Dependent on eye and forms, arises visual consciousness. The concurrence of the three is contact. Conditioned by contact is feeling. Conditioned by feeling, craving. Conditioned by craving, grasping. Conditioned by grasping, becoming. Conditioned by becoming, birth. And conditioned by birth, arise decay, death, grief lamentation, suffering, despair. This is the arising of the world.
- "Monks, I will teach you the all. And what is the all? The eye and forms, the ear and sounds the nose and odors, the tongue and tastes, the body and touch, the mind and mental phenomena. This is called the all. If anyone, monks, should speak thus: ' Having rejected this all, I shall make known another all' - that would be a mere empty boast." SN IV 15.
- ". . . the perception of impermanence should be cultivated for the removal of the conceit 'I am.' For when one perceives impermanence, Meghiya, the perception of not-self is established. When one perceives not-self one reaches the removal of the conceit 'I am,' which is called Nibbana here and now." U iv 1.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
That's for each of us to examine within our own minds, of course, whether we identify with the experiential process of conditioned co-production.tiltbillings wrote:Oh, please. I'd ask you to show how that use of conventional language is "identification," but likely you will refuse, as you so often have refused to engage in discussion of what is said, but you do like to throw out the brickbats.
Paticcasamuppada tells of the cessation of the experiential process.I'll rephrase:
Truth/Dhamma is to be seen/known/experienced in terms of the experiential process of conditioned co-production/paticcasamuppada, and nowhere else.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
- tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
In other words, your brickbat was gratuitous, without substance, not engaging what was said.kirk5a wrote:That's for each of us to examine within our own minds, of course, whether we identify with the experiential process of conditioned co-production.tiltbillings wrote:Oh, please. I'd ask you to show how that use of conventional language is "identification," but likely you will refuse, as you so often have refused to engage in discussion of what is said, but you do like to throw out the brickbats.
- Who sees paticcasamuppada sees Dhamma, who sees Dhamma sees paticcasamuppda. - MN 1 190-1
So, you are saying that the arahant has no experience after awakening.kirk wrote:Paticcasamuppada tells of the cessation of the experiential process.I'll rephrase:
Truth/Dhamma is to be seen/known/experienced in terms of the experiential process of conditioned co-production/paticcasamuppada, and nowhere else.
MN I 354: My back aches. I will rest it. So, the Buddha was not experiencing an aching back.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
No I am not saying that. Other formulations of paticcasamuppada include the cessation of feeling. Prior to parinibbana, that would necessarily be a temporary state.tiltbillings wrote:So, you are saying that the arahant has no experience after awakening.kirk5a wrote: Paticcasamuppada tells of the cessation of the experiential process.
MN I 354: My back aches. I will rest it. So, the Buddha was not experiencing an aching back.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
- tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
And, as usual, you do not engage what is actually being said.kirk5a wrote:No I am not saying that. Other formulations of paticcasamuppada include the cessation of feeling. Prior to parinibbana, that would necessarily be a temporary state.tiltbillings wrote:So, you are saying that the arahant has no experience after awakening.kirk5a wrote: Paticcasamuppada tells of the cessation of the experiential process.
MN I 354: My back aches. I will rest it. So, the Buddha was not experiencing an aching back.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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- Contact:
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
Greetings,
Metta,
Retro.
As long as you're including paticcasamuppada in its cessation mode too... as that's actually how amata is to be seen/known/experienced.tiltbillings wrote:Truth/Dhamma is to be seen/known/experienced in terms of the experiential process of conditioned co-production/paticcasamuppada, and nowhere else.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
Interestingly enough the Buddha did not specify that in this text: Who sees paticcasamuppada sees Dhamma, who sees Dhamma sees paticcasamuppda. - MN 1 190-1.retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
As long as you're including paticcasamuppada in its cessation mode too... as that's actually how amata is to be seen/known/experienced.tiltbillings wrote:Truth/Dhamma is to be seen/known/experienced in terms of the experiential process of conditioned co-production/paticcasamuppada, and nowhere else.
But, of course, in seeing the interdependent rise and fall there is insight and a natural letting go.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- retrofuturist
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- Contact:
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
Greetings,
Metta,
Retro.
Which interestingly enough doesn't specify amata at all... which makes it not quite so interesting after all, in the context of this topic.tiltbillings wrote:Interestingly enough the Buddha did not specify that in this text: Who sees paticcasamuppada sees Dhamma, who sees Dhamma sees paticcasamuppda. - MN 1 190-1.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
- tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
Well, given that seeing the Dhamma is awakening which is freedom from death, and given that becoming awakened plays itself out in "the world," it is directly relevant to the context of this topic.retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Which interestingly enough doesn't specify amata at all... which makes it not quite so interesting after all, in the context of this topic.tiltbillings wrote:Interestingly enough the Buddha did not specify that in this text: Who sees paticcasamuppada sees Dhamma, who sees Dhamma sees paticcasamuppda. - MN 1 190-1.
Metta,
Retro.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723