Contradiction in between the Vinaya rules?

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yamaka
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Contradiction in between the Vinaya rules?

Post by yamaka »

Dear all Dhamma friends,

I would like to seek for comments regarding the contradiction(maybe?) in the Vinaya rules as below:

From the Vinaya Pitaka>Paccittiya Kandam >Bhikkhuni Vibhango>Navamsikkhapadam

The rules was settle up by the Buddha because of the a group of six Nuns(Chabbaggiya Bhikkhuni) learning & practicing the **animal spell(Tiracchanavijja) and been ridiculed by the lay people, thus the Buddha had settled a rule for the Nuns(Bhikkhuni), those who learned, will be committed an offense(Paccittiya).

But in the end of the story, the Buddha had also allow those Nuns, who practicing the animal spell for the Protection(Guttatthaya Paritta), For keeping in mind, mad, first time to committed such offense are freed of such offense( Anapatti).

So, I am confused to the account of above, which we may learn those mantras,dharanis & others religion's spells are OK for our protection? :anjali:

**Animal spell, was a translation for Chinese, Pali dictionary was translated it to [Higher knowledge of the animal]
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cooran
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Re: Contradiction in between the Vinaya rules?

Post by cooran »

Hello Yamaka,

Are you able to find the exact story for us on-line?

Here is a link to the

Bhikkhunī Pāṭimokkha - The Bhikkhunīs' Code of Disciplinetranslated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... -pati.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
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daverupa
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Re: Contradiction in between the Vinaya rules?

Post by daverupa »

Somewhere I read that instead of "animal", the Pali might be "lower, base" or something like that. Anyone know about that aspect in this context? I rather suspect a pun here.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
santa100
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Re: Contradiction in between the Vinaya rules?

Post by santa100 »

The Protection chant in Buddhism relies on powers coming from within, not the power from external sources. They're the powers of truth, metta, virtues, the respect for the Budhha, etc.. ( ref: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ction.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )
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Re: Contradiction in between the Vinaya rules?

Post by yamaka »

cooran wrote:Hello Yamaka,

Are you able to find the exact story for us on-line?

Here is a link to the

Bhikkhunī Pāṭimokkha - The Bhikkhunīs' Code of Disciplinetranslated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... -pati.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
Hi Cooran, thanks for your prompt replied.

So sorry, I don't have a copy for the English translation of the Vinaya Pitaka but only have a Chinese one.According your reference[The Bhikkhuni patimokkha] does not include the above said rules.

Here is the original text from the Vinaya Pali version(CSCD):
The Basket Of Vinaya>The Division For Nun(Bhikkhuni)>Pacittiya Offense>The Ninth Training:

1013. Tena samayena buddho bhagavā sāvatthiyaṃ viharati jetavane anāthapiṇḍikassa ārāme. Tena kho pana samayena chabbaggiyā bhikkhuniyo tiracchānavijjaṃ pariyāpuṇanti. Manussā ujjhāyanti khiyyanti vipācenti – ‘‘kathañhi nāma bhikkhuniyo tiracchānavijjaṃ pariyāpuṇissanti, seyyathāpi gihiniyo kāmabhoginiyo’’ti! Assosuṃ kho bhikkhuniyo tesaṃ manussānaṃ ujjhāyantānaṃ khiyyantānaṃ vipācentānaṃ. Yā tā bhikkhuniyo appicchā…pe… tā ujjhāyanti khiyyanti vipācenti – ‘‘kathañhi nāma chabbaggiyā bhikkhuniyo tiracchānavijjaṃ pariyāpuṇissantī’’ti…pe… saccaṃ kira, bhikkhave, chabbaggiyā bhikkhuniyo tiracchānavijjaṃ pariyāpuṇantīti? ‘‘Saccaṃ, bhagavā’’ti. Vigarahi buddho bhagavā…pe… kathañhi nāma, bhikkhave, chabbaggiyā bhikkhuniyo tiracchānavijjaṃ pariyāpuṇissanti! Netaṃ, bhikkhave, appasannānaṃ vā pasādāya…pe… evañca pana, bhikkhave, bhikkhuniyo imaṃ sikkhāpadaṃ uddisantu –

1014.‘‘Yā pana bhikkhunī tiracchānavijjaṃ pariyāpuṇeyya, pācittiya’’nti.

1015.Yā panāti yā yādisā…pe… bhikkhunīti…pe… ayaṃ imasmiṃ atthe adhippetā bhikkhunīti.

Tiracchānavijjā[tiracchānavijjaṃ (ka.)] nāma yaṃ kiñci bāhirakaṃ anatthasaṃhitaṃ.

Pariyāpuṇeyyāti padena pariyāpuṇāti, pade pade āpatti pācittiyassa. Akkharāya pariyāpuṇāti, akkharakkharāya āpatti pācittiyassa.

1016. Anāpatti lekhaṃ pariyāpuṇāti, dhāraṇaṃ pariyāpuṇāti, guttatthāya parittaṃ pariyāpuṇāti, ummattikāya, ādikammikāyāti.

Navamasikkhāpadaṃ niṭṭhitaṃ.

:namaste:
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yamaka
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Re: Contradiction in between the Vinaya rules?

Post by yamaka »

daverupa wrote:Somewhere I read that instead of "animal", the Pali might be "lower, base" or something like that. Anyone know about that aspect in this context? I rather suspect a pun here.
Hi, daverupa.

Base on the Concise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera & the PTS's Pali Dictionary,

tiracchāna is mean for an animal or a beast. Which Vijja is mean for Knowledge or wisdom, sometime Buddha has called it as lower arts as heretic(Example:Tevijja, 3 fold Knowledge, A higher knowledge from the Brahmins, the 3 Vedas), and so on. I think the translation for Chinese (Animal Spell) is not that correct, thus, it should be called as (Animal's arts or knowledge of Animal)


:anjali:
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yamaka
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Re: Contradiction in between the Vinaya rules?

Post by yamaka »

santa100 wrote:The Protection chant in Buddhism relies on powers coming from within, not the power from external sources. They're the powers of truth, metta, virtues, the respect for the Budhha, etc.. ( ref: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ction.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )
Hello, Santa100.

Yes, I do know the protection chantings which were followed by many of Theravada Buddhists. But my point is, If the Buddha had condemned his disciples to learn such of arts(Vijja), regardless of any heretics. Like: Tevijja(3 fold knowledge of the Brahmins), Tiracchānavijja(Animal's arts).

In the account of the topic, the Buddha had also allowed his disciples to learn/to master/to keep in mind for the purpose of protection/guard/safety(guttatthāya parittaṃ), should this idea contradicts the earlier said? Unlike Theravada, the Mahayana sectarian has many Mantra & Dharani(In Chinese, they were called as spell), which is believed by them to have such functions(Protection) too.

:anjali:
Sylvester
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Re: Contradiction in between the Vinaya rules?

Post by Sylvester »

Penned some thoughts here previously on "tiracchana" -

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 97#p150953" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

See also BB's notes on the Sacca Samyutta, where he cites the Commentarial explanation of "tiracchana katha" -
Ma bhikkhave anekavihitam tiracchanakatham katheyyatha. Tiracchanakatha is
literally “animal talk,” but SA explains it as talk that “runs horizontal” (tiracchanabhutam) to the paths leading to heaven and liberation.
Sorry, if the diacritics are messed up.
santa100
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Re: Contradiction in between the Vinaya rules?

Post by santa100 »

Yamaka wrote:
In the account of the topic, the Buddha had also allowed his disciples to learn/to master/to keep in mind for the purpose of protection/guard/safety(guttatthāya parittaṃ), should this idea contradicts the earlier said? Unlike Theravada, the Mahayana sectarian has many Mantra & Dharani(In Chinese, they were called as spell), which is believed by them to have such functions(Protection) too.
I'm not very familiar with the Mantra/Dharani of the Mahayana or Vajrayana schools, but I'd imagine they also derive the protective powers from within, powers of truth, of virtues, of compassion. And if practiced with a genuine heart, there's nothing wrong with them serving their role as Protective functions. There was an instance of Angulimala, after renouncing his violent life to become a virtuous monk, one day on his alms round, he saw a woman in labor and she was in great pain. Angulimala said to her, something like: "Since the day I became a monk, I've practiced the path whole-heartedly without breaking any precept, may the power of this truth helps you". And as a result, the woman's pain stopped and she gave birth without any problem.
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yamaka
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Re: Contradiction in between the Vinaya rules?

Post by yamaka »

Sylvester wrote:Penned some thoughts here previously on "tiracchana" -

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 97#p150953" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

See also BB's notes on the Sacca Samyutta, where he cites the Commentarial explanation of "tiracchana katha" -
Ma bhikkhave anekavihitam tiracchanakatham katheyyatha. Tiracchanakatha is
literally “animal talk,” but SA explains it as talk that “runs horizontal” (tiracchanabhutam) to the paths leading to heaven and liberation.
Sorry, if the diacritics are messed up.
Hi Sylvester, thanks for you add on, I had searched the Tiracchana katha(Lowly talks) and it has the result as below:
tiracchāna-kathā

'low talk', lit. 'beastly talk', is the name in the sutta-texts for the following:

"Talk about kings and robbers, ministers and armies, danger and war, eating and drinking, clothes and dwellings, garlands and scents, relations, chariots, villages and markets, towns and districts, women and heroes, street talks, talks by the well, talk about those departed in days gone by, tittle-tattle, talks about world and sea, about gain and loss" (A.X.69 etc.).

In the commentaries 4 further kinds are enumerated, thus bringing the number to 32, as mostly counted, namely:

talk about sensuous enjoyment,

self-mortification,

eternity and

self-annihilation.

And I had found the tiracchanavijja explained by BB~>vatthuvijjātiracchānavijjāya, (by the debased art of geomancy)

This should have enlightened me. :anjali:
Last edited by yamaka on Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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yamaka
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Re: Contradiction in between the Vinaya rules?

Post by yamaka »

Dear all, I have found some interesting result In the Pali Text>Digha Nikaya(The Long Discourse)>Samannaphala Sutta(The Fruits of the Contemplative)Life that translated from Pali by Bhikkhi Thanissaro had explained the tiracchanavijjaya too. :namaste:


Bhikkhu Thanissaro explained the meaning for tiracchanavijja as "Lowly arts" as shown below:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Great Section on Virtue
"Whereas some priests and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, maintain themselves by wrong livelihood, by such lowly arts as: reading marks on the limbs [e.g., palmistry]; reading omens and signs; interpreting celestial events [falling stars, comets]; interpreting dreams; reading marks on the body [e.g., phrenology]; reading marks on cloth gnawed by mice; offering fire oblations, oblations from a ladle, oblations of husks, rice powder, rice grains, ghee, and oil; offering oblations from the mouth; offering blood-sacrifices; making predictions based on the fingertips; geomancy; laying demons in a cemetery; placing spells on spirits; reciting house-protection charms; snake charming, poison-lore, scorpion-lore, rat-lore, bird-lore, crow-lore; fortune-telling based on visions; giving protective charms; interpreting the calls of birds and animals — he abstains from wrong livelihood, from lowly arts such as these.

"Whereas some priests and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, maintain themselves by wrong livelihood, by such lowly arts as: determining lucky and unlucky gems, garments, staffs, swords, spears, arrows, bows, and other weapons; women, boys, girls, male slaves, female slaves; elephants, horses, buffaloes, bulls, cows, goats, rams, fowl, quails, lizards, long-eared rodents, tortoises, and other animals — he abstains from wrong livelihood, from lowly arts such as these.

"Whereas some priests and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, maintain themselves by wrong livelihood, by such lowly arts as forecasting: the rulers will march forth; the rulers will march forth and return; our rulers will attack, and their rulers will retreat; their rulers will attack, and our rulers will retreat; there will be triumph for our rulers and defeat for their rulers; there will be triumph for their rulers and defeat for our rulers; thus there will be triumph, thus there will be defeat — he abstains from wrong livelihood, from lowly arts such as these.

"Whereas some priests and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, maintain themselves by wrong livelihood, by such lowly arts as forecasting: there will be a lunar eclipse; there will be a solar eclipse; there will be an occultation of an asterism; the sun and moon will go their normal courses; the sun and moon will go astray; the asterisms will go their normal courses; the asterisms will go astray; there will be a meteor shower; there will be a darkening of the sky; there will be an earthquake; there will be thunder coming from a clear sky; there will be a rising, a setting, a darkening, a brightening of the sun, moon, and asterisms; such will be the result of the lunar eclipse... the rising, setting, darkening, brightening of the sun, moon, and asterisms — he abstains from wrong livelihood, from lowly arts such as these.

"Whereas some priests and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, maintain themselves by wrong livelihood, by such lowly arts as forecasting: there will be abundant rain; there will be a drought; there will be plenty; there will be famine; there will be rest and security; there will be danger; there will be disease; there will be freedom from disease; or they earn their living by counting, accounting, calculation, composing poetry, or teaching hedonistic arts and doctrines — he abstains from wrong livelihood, from lowly arts such as these.

"Whereas some priests and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, maintain themselves by wrong livelihood, by such lowly arts as: calculating auspicious dates for marriages, betrothals, divorces; for collecting debts or making investments and loans; for being attractive or unattractive; curing women who have undergone miscarriages or abortions; reciting spells to bind a man's tongue, to paralyze his jaws, to make him lose control over his hands, or to bring on deafness; getting oracular answers to questions addressed to a mirror, to a young girl, or to a spirit medium; worshipping the sun, worshipping the Great Brahma, bringing forth flames from the mouth, invoking the goddess of luck — he abstains from wrong livelihood, from lowly arts such as these.

"Whereas some priests and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, maintain themselves by wrong livelihood, by such lowly arts as: promising gifts to devas in return for favors; fulfilling such promises; demonology; teaching house-protection spells; inducing virility and impotence; consecrating sites for construction; giving ceremonial mouthwashes and ceremonial bathing; offering sacrificial fires; administering emetics, purges, purges from above, purges from below, head-purges; administering ear-oil, eye-drops, treatments through the nose, ointments, and counter-ointments; practicing eye-surgery (or: extractive surgery), general surgery, pediatrics; administering root-medicines binding medicinal herbs — he abstains from wrong livelihood, from lowly arts such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue.
So, based on the quote as above, the recitation of spells on spirit,snake charms, house protection charms and etc are allowed in the Vinaya text for the purposes of protection and not for trading,it's free of offense(if ones were a Bhikkhu or Bhikkhuni)? :thinking:
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Re: Contradiction in between the Vinaya rules?

Post by Sylvester »

Hi Yamaka

The Bhikkhu Vinaya contains a similar rule as the Bhikkhuni Vinaya prohibition of the practice of tiracchanavijja, although it looks much briefer than the nun's rule.

Besides the recitation of paritta for self-protection against creepy-crawlies, the origin story in the Bhikkhu Vinaya expands this allowance somewhat -
'You are not, O Bhikkhus, to learn--to teach--the low arts (of divination, spells, omens, astrology, sacrifices to gods, witchcraft, and quackery).'

3. Now at that time the Blessed One when, surrounded by a great assembly, he was preaching the Dhamma, sneezed. The Bhikkhus raised a great and mighty shout, 'Long life to our Lord the Blessed One! Long life to the Happy One!' and by the sound thereof the discourse was interrupted. Then the Blessed One said to the Bhikkhus:

'Now if when a man has sneezed, O Bhikkhus, some one says, "Long life to you," can he live or die on that account?'

'Not so, Lord.'

'You are not, O Bhikkhus, when one has sneezed, to call out, "Long life to you." Whosoever does so, shall be guilty of a dukkata .'

Now at that time people said to the Bhikkhus when they sneezed, 'Long life to your reverence!' and the Bhikkhus, fearing to offend, gave no reply. The people murmured, were annoyed, and were indignant, saying, 'How can the Sakya-puttiya Samanas omit to reply when people say, "Long life to your reverence?"'

They told this matter to the Blessed One.

'Laymen, O Bhikkhus, are given to lucky phrases. I allow you, O Bhikkhus, to reply, "May you live long!" to laymen who say to you, "Long life to your reverence!"'
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe20/sbe20048.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What seems to be common to the guttatthāya paritta allowance and the gesundheit allowance in both rules is perhaps the Buddha's recognition that the monastics have to be socially engaged to a little extent, be it with fellow humans or with creepy crawlies.

This attitude is also found in the sequel to the prohibition against monastic 'talismans' percipitated by the Prince Bodhi episode. When monks declined to step on lay supporters' cloths for good luck, that raised a stink, until the Buddha modified the rule to allow monks to step on such cloth for good luck.
danialpaul1
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Re: Contradiction in between the Vinaya rules?

Post by danialpaul1 »

really ? how would you know about it ?
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