Invulnerability in 4th Jhana?

[Kusala]

I came across this interesting topic at dhammaloka.org http://community.dhammaloka.org.au/show ... -4th-Jhana My question is, how common is the 4th Jhana?

[Denisa]

Perhaps, the monk in the story was in a similar level of samadhi as the Buddha in this Parinibbana Sutta story.

I heard in an audio a monk asking Ajahn Brahm how many of his students have jhanas, and the answer was "very few." Proper jhanas as Ajahn Brahm explains may not be so common and easy to attain.

[santa100]

Perhaps, the monk in the story was in a similar level of samadhi as the Buddha in this Parinibbana Sutta story.

The Buddha was actually in a much more superior state called Concentration of the Fruit of Arahanship (arahattaphalasamadhi). More info. from another thread here
Also, the link in the OP mentioned the story of a monk in 4th jhana who got cremated. Actually, it wasn't the 4th jhana. It was the 9th meditative state called Cessation of Feeling and Perception. See the story of Ven. Sanjiva in MN 50

[Denisa]

Perhaps, the monk in the story was in a similar level of samadhi as the Buddha in this Parinibbana Sutta story.

The Buddha was actually in a much more superior state called Concentration of the Fruit of Arahanship (arahattaphalasamadhi). More info. from another thread here
Also, the link in the OP mentioned the story of a monk in 4th jhana who got cremated. Actually, it wasn't the 4th jhana. It was the 9th meditative state called Cessation of Feeling and Perception. See the story of Ven. Sanjiva in MN 50

Thank you for pointing that santa. But the Parinibbana Sutta itself not clear about Buddha's state. I copied that Sutta from pg.# 17 of this book, there a monk claims (fn.# 88) Buddha was in the attainment of cessation:

fn.# 88 Ven. Ariyadhamma said that The Buddha was in the attainment of cessation, thus he did not hear sound. This explanation has no any base in the Sutta, and one may question that Āḷāra Kālāma was a common worldling who only possessed up to formless attainments, did not hear sound too.

I have a friend who claims he has 4th jhana, we (and also he) wanted to test his jhana, so under his consent we did some testing regarding not hearing sound in 1st jhana, missing breathing, pulse, and heart beat of 4th jhana. After many years of mastery he has a very good timing when come to the amount of time he spent in a respective jhana. From our testing it was proven what Sutta says about not hearing sound, etc. We placed a mirror under his nose and at the given time (+ - few minutes) where he said he will enter 4th jhana the fogging on the mirror stops and we feel no air coming out of his nostrils. To make it more sure we put a polythene bag to his head and taped it firmly around his neck, there were no movement/contraction in the bag and we keot it for about 4 hours till the time he said he will finish the meditation.

We also moved his body once and submerged his head in water for an hour when he was in 4th jhana, we didn't do it till he come out of jhana since there's no need of a Waterboarding. He claims that he is not even an anagami (non-returner) so not hearing "thunder rolling, lightning flashing, and thunderbolts crashing" is not necessarily due to Concentration of the Fruit of Arahanship (arahattaphalasamadhi) or Cessation of Feeling and Perception.

Also this friend has a well proven ability to read minds of others'

[santa100]

Thank you for pointing that santa. But the Parinibbana Sutta itself not clear about Buddha's state. I copied that Sutta from pg.# 17 of this book, there a monk claims (fn.# 88) Buddha was in the attainment of cessation:

While it's true that arahattaphalasamadhi wasn't explicitly mentioned in DN 16, if you read the link I provided, Ven. Nanananda gave a pretty strong case and clearly distinguished this state from the other regular ones (like the case of Alara Kalama)

We also moved his body once and submerged his head in water for an hour when he was in 4th jhana, we didn't do it till he come out of jhana since there's no need of a Waterboarding. He claims that he is not even an anagami (non-returner) so not hearing "thunder rolling, lightning flashing, and thunderbolts crashing" is not necessarily due to Concentration of the Fruit of Arahanship (arahattaphalasamadhi) or Cessation of Feeling and Perception.

Again, from Ven. Nanananda's link, 4th jhana might enable one not to hear thunder rolling and stuff but it's not powerful enough to do that "while being conscious and awake" like in the Buddha's case in DN 16. Also, the 4th jhana might make one impervious to water submersion (breathing ceases in this jhana) but not to fire. Your friend would need to attain the Cessation of Feeling and Perception to survive cremation like Ven. Sanjiva in MN 50. So do not try that on your friend just yet.. Last point I'd like to make is that one can attain 4th jhana or the formless meditative attainments, and the supernormal powers of mind-reading, levitation, etc. without attaining any of the 4 Noble Fruits. The Buddha particularly valued a kind of power above the others, the power of instruction in DN 11. That's why in SN 12.70, there're arahants who don't possess supernormal powers.

[Denisa]

While it's true that arahattaphalasamadhi wasn't explicitly mentioned in DN 16, if you read the link I provided, Ven. Nanananda gave a strong case and clearly distinguished this state from the other regular ones (like the case of Alara Kalama)

I'm afraid I don't have time to read 106 pages. I'd appreciate if you can state the Sutta reference Ven. Nanananda used to make his pretty strong case.

Again, from Ven. Nanananda's link, 4th jhana might enable one not to hear thunder rolling and stuff but it's not powerful enough to do that "while being conscious and awake" like in the Buddha's case in DN 16.

Again, a Sutta reference would be great. I think here conscious means not unconscious as when fainted, and awake means not fallen asleep, because in both situations a person doesn't hear sounds. Even in 4th jhana one is consciousness of the sign (nimitta) and absorbed in it. That's the basic question the lay person asked in the Parinibbana Sutta story. However, below quoting is making a very clear argument (pg.# 18).

At one time The Buddha was abiding in the gabled hall in the Great Forest in Vesāli with many well-known elder disciple bhikkhus such as Ven. Cāla, Ven. Upacāla, Ven. Kukkuṭa, Ven. Kaḷimbha, Ven. Nikaṭa, Ven. Kaṭissa, and other well-known elder bhikkhus. At that time many well-known Licchavīs coming to the Great Forest to see The Buddha, making much noise. Then it occurred to those venerable ones: “These well-known Licchavīs coming to the Great Forest to see The Buddha, making much noise. The Buddha has said that sound (sadda) is a thorn to dhayanas. What if we go to the Gosiṅga Forest. It has less noise, not so crowded, we will have a pleasant abiding.” Then those venerable ones went to the Gosiṅga Forest.

Then The Buddha asked the whereabouts of those elder bhikkhus, and they told him what had happened. And The Buddha addressed the bhikkhus: “Good! Good! Bhikkhus, the great disciples have said it correctly and rightly. Sound is a thorn to dhyanas. These ten are thorns. What ten?

[1]For seclusion, company is a thorn. [2]For developing the sign of loathsomeness, an agreeable sign is a thorn. [3]For sense restrain, sight seeing is a thorn. [4]For leading a holy life, the behaviour of a woman is a torn. [5] For the first dhyana, sounds are a thorn. [6]For the second dhyana, initial and sustained applications of mind are a thorn. [7]For the third dhyana, rapture is a thorn. [8]For the fourth dhyana, inhalation and exhalation is a thorn. [9]For the attainment of cessation, perceptions and feelings are a
thorn. [10]Greed, hatred, and delusion are a thorn.

Bhikkhus, live without thorns, free from thorns. Bhikkhus, the arahants are without thorns, free from thorns.”

[Aṅguttara Nikāya 10.72,Kaṇṭaka Sutta]

fn.# 94 A thorn denotes that one has fallen away from the opposing condition, e.g. sounds against first dhyana. Or, in other words, one has to abandon a thorn or will be devoid of it, when in the opposing condition. Based on the Sutta, it is very clear that as when one is in seclusion, company is not occurring, and as when one is in the attainment of cessation, perceptions and feelings are not occurring. Just like seclusion and company, hearing sound and dhyana also cannot occur at the same time

...but not to fire. Your friend would need to attain the Cessation of Feeling and Perception to survive cremation like Ven. Sanjiva in MN 50. So do not try that on your friend just yet..

Actually we did. We burned bit of his hair. Beforehand he told us not to burn or cut his skin as he was vulnerable to both.

Last point I'd like to make is that one can attain 4th jhana or the formless meditative attainments, and the supernormal powers of mind-reading, levitation, etc. without attaining any of the 4 Noble Fruits. The Buddha particularly valued a kind of power above the others, the power of instruction in DN 11. That's why in SN 12.70, there're arahants who don't possess supernormal powers.

Fully agreed! I think first we like to move mountains but when actually get the power with wisdom (Arahant) we lose the interest. However, there can be special cases like Ven. Maha Moggallana due to his samsaric inclinations and practise.