Buddhislm is Absurd

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.

Buddhislm is Absurd

Postby lojong1 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:18 am

Dr. Zakir Naik seems to be the preferred word on buddhism in the islamic world. The following is from the comparative religion section of his website irf.net

-- "(i) There is suffering and misery in life.
(ii) The cause of suffering and misery is desire.
(iii) Suffering and misery can be removed by removing desire.
(iv) Desire can be removed by following the Eight Fold Path.
This Philosophy of Buddhism is self-contradictory or self-defeating because the third truth says ‘suffering and misery can be removed by removing desire’ and the fourth truth says that 'desire can be removed by following the Eight Fold Path'.
Now, for any person to follow Buddhism he should first have the desire to follow the Four Noble Truths and the Eight Fold Path. The Third great Noble Truth says that desire should be removed. Once you remove desire, how can we follow the Fourth Noble truth i.e. follow the Eight Fold Path unless we have a desire to follow the Eight Fold Path. In short desire can only be removed by having a desire to follow the Eight Fold Path. If you do not follow the Eight Fold Path, desire cannot be removed. It is self contradicting as well as self-defeating to say that desire will only be removed by continuously having a desire."


I feel raped, infected, pregnant, robbed, beaten looked at wrong and tickled pink! This is a carefully crafted piece of evil that does not want to be correct.

Suggest ways to quickly challenge this argument. :smile:
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Postby Sylvester » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:33 am

Aah. The Unnabha Paradox. See SN 51.15.
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Postby James the Giant » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:43 am

Solved! Take THAT Dr Zakir Naik! Kapow!
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Postby lojong1 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:44 am

My child will be named Sylvester. I knew of that response but didn't know which sutta.
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Postby lojong1 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:52 am

That is pretty freaking funny JtheG.

And miraculously self-opened on my desktop is 'Paradox of Becoming' which surely contains related material!
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Postby Kim OHara » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:33 am

Sylvester wrote:Aah. The Unnabha Paradox. See SN 51.15.

An alternative (and I am not claiming it is a better one :tongue: ) is to distinguish between desire/craving/greed and intention.
I can intend to follow the path which leads to my workplace tomorrow morning but that isn't really the same thing as desiring to do so.

:namaste:
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Postby Sam Vara » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:41 am

"....and then Ajahn Chah said to me
'Actually, Dr. Naik's website isn't really bothering your mind at all. If you reflect on it, it's your mind that is going out to bother Dr. Naik's website, isn't it?'..."
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:58 am

Sam Vara wrote:"....and then Ajahn Chah said to me
'Actually, Dr. Naik's website isn't really bothering your mind at all. If you reflect on it, it's your mind that is going out to bother Dr. Naik's website, isn't it?'..."


:clap:
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Postby manas » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:15 pm

Never mind that this Dr Naik has wrongly grasped the difference between the skillful use of desire to tread the Path, and the freedom from craving for sensuality, becoming and non-becoming experienced by the Arahant. Because in my experience, you could explain this to him, and then he would just find fault with something else about the Path.

He's a Muslim talking about Buddhism, did you expect a glowing appraisal?

'Forgive him, for he knows not what the heck he's talking about' :D

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Primum non nocere: "first, do no harm."
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Postby kirk5a » Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:02 pm

In college, a philosophy professor expressed exactly the same objection to me. Too bad I didn't know how to respond at the time. I knew it was fishy reasoning, but I couldn't put my finger on why.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:17 pm

Sylvester wrote:Aah. The Unnabha Paradox. See SN 51.15.


That is a great Sutta. The issue comes up somewhat often at Dhamma centers where someone will state that all desire is bad, that even 'desire' for enlightenment is bad and having that desire will prevent it from happening. This is not true and when I get the chance I tell them about chanda, the wholesome desire. Ananda explains it much better in this Sutta.
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Postby Gena1480 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:40 am

it is hard for Buddhist to understand
the four noble truth
let alone non Buddhist.
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Postby m0rl0ck » Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:01 am

:rofl:

WOW, talk about glass houses.
"Even if you've read the whole Canon and can remember lots of teachings; even if you can explain them in poignant ways, with lots of people to respect you; even if you build a lot of monastery buildings, or can explain inconstancy, stress, and not-self in the most detailed fashion ... The only thing that serves your own true purpose is release from suffering.

"And you'll be able to gain release from suffering only when you know the one mind."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Postby Kusala » Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:05 am

lojong1 wrote:Dr. Zakir Naik seems to be the preferred word on buddhism in the islamic world. The following is from the comparative religion section of his website irf.net

-- "(i) There is suffering and misery in life.
(ii) The cause of suffering and misery is desire.
(iii) Suffering and misery can be removed by removing desire.
(iv) Desire can be removed by following the Eight Fold Path.
This Philosophy of Buddhism is self-contradictory or self-defeating because the third truth says ‘suffering and misery can be removed by removing desire’ and the fourth truth says that 'desire can be removed by following the Eight Fold Path'.
Now, for any person to follow Buddhism he should first have the desire to follow the Four Noble Truths and the Eight Fold Path. The Third great Noble Truth says that desire should be removed. Once you remove desire, how can we follow the Fourth Noble truth i.e. follow the Eight Fold Path unless we have a desire to follow the Eight Fold Path. In short desire can only be removed by having a desire to follow the Eight Fold Path. If you do not follow the Eight Fold Path, desire cannot be removed. It is self contradicting as well as self-defeating to say that desire will only be removed by continuously having a desire."


I feel raped, infected, pregnant, robbed, beaten looked at wrong and tickled pink! This is a carefully crafted piece of evil that does not want to be correct.

Suggest ways to quickly challenge this argument. :smile:




“Praise and blame, gain and loss, pleasure and sorrow come and go like the wind. To be happy, rest like a giant tree in the midst of them all”
- Buddha
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Homage to the Buddha
Thus indeed, is that Blessed One: He is the Holy One, fully enlightened, endowed with clear vision and virtuous conduct, sublime, the Knower of the worlds, the incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed.

Homage to the Teachings
The Dhamma of the Blessed One is perfectly expounded; to be seen here and now; not delayed in
time; inviting one to come and see; onward leading (to Nibbana); to be known by the wise, each for himself.
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Postby hataribaba » Sat Dec 21, 2013 2:22 pm

Salam alaykum

Being a Muslim myself, I know 'modern' Muslim preachers and their techniques quite well. Dr Naik knows that he addresses mostly people with no knowledge of buddhism whatsoever. Oddly enough, Naik's audience is predominantly Muslim, so he preaches to converts as it were. His 'mission' may be to spread Islam and reach new audiences from other faiths, but what he actually does is mainly reinforce already well-established beliefs and faith among the Muslim community.

I'm glad that his remarks have led some of you to learn new things about your own spiritual system, but I really don't think he is worth getting annoyed about.
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Postby Khalil Bodhi » Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:49 pm

Walaikum salaam! Thank you for your perspective on the issue and welcome to the forum.
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183

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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Postby Taijitu » Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:05 pm

We are all complex paradoxes so it shouldn't be hard to work out a simple paradox.

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Of these mountains, which shall be my home?
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Postby PadmaPhala » Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:50 am

someone that doesn't see the 4 Noble Truths as self-evident...

maybe 4 is too difficult to comprehend, try with TriLaksana (Tri = 3).
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Postby Sekha » Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:00 pm

That's the problem with philosophers.

“For those that are blind, the truth always remains crooked”
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Postby BlackBird » Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:18 am

To the OP, the writer sees this as a contradiction only because he does not understand it. It's not a contradiction at all.

The Buddha mentions in the Suttas somewhere that it is by craving that craving comes to cease. In essence one has to employ craving to finally come to the realization that rids one of craving. I believe this is one of the reasons that the Buddha refers to the teachings as a raft, that even the teachings must be abandoned when one reaches the other shore, thus how much more so should other things be abandoned.

People have been trying to slander the Dhamma since the Buddha first got some renown, but no person in my mind has ever levelled a true and valid criticism against it, criticisms of the true Dhamma only arise from misunderstanding or from malice. But the Dhamma will always stand up to a few knocks because as the Buddha states: It is free of patchwork.

metta
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"And so, because this Teaching is so different from what Westerners are accustomed to, they will try to adapt the Teaching to their own framework. What they need to learn to do is not to adapt the Teaching to their own point of view but to adapt their own point of view to the Teaching. This is called saddhá, or faith, and it means giving oneself to the Teaching even if the Teaching is contrary to one’s own preconceived notions of the way things are."- Ven Bodhesako

Nanavira Thera's teachings - An existential approach to the Dhamma | Ven. Bodhesako's essay on anicca
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